Looking for some suggestions - setting up a new rig

[veniculum]

Hey guys. I recently posted in another thread that I'm a guitar guy...love lots of guitars...love lots of different guitars. I've never been much of an effects guy. I find that the tone created by an individual guitar is much more interesting than putting together a bunch of pedals, pedal boards, or rack mount effects. Since the very first band I played in, basically, I just relied on the built in distortion/overdrive, and some presence and reverb. Sounds kinda lame I guess...and now that I have the means to put together a nicer rig, I'm thinking about putting a little more effort into what I'm playing through, as opposed to simply relying on the guitar for my tone. Granted, I still find the guitars' 'personality' to be the most important part to any sound I'm trying to create...that said, I'd like to now start to build the perfect rig.

Strangely enough, my favorite setup at the moment is something that really sounds lame...I bought one of those line 6 pocket pods...downloaded a few tones from Customtone.com, and then created a few of my own tones. One, in particular, is EXACTLY what I'm going for. I have yet to be able to create that sound on ANY amp. I also have an old Ibanez pedal board ("PUE5-Tube")...it sounded amazing when I bought it 20 years ago, back in 1990 or 91...but now, I don't know what it is...it's lost its balls. I've replaced the tube to no avail.

So other than my pocket pod , my current rig is pretty simple. I have a Line 6 Spider Valve 212 (it's the Bogner model...with a tube)...and it rocks pretty good. It gives me the ability to create various tones using the built in modeling. To that, I've added a Boss Compressor/Sustainer pedal, and a Boss EQ...as well as a decimator noise gate pedal, to quiet that compressor/sustainer down a little. I also have a 20 year old Mesa Boogie single 12" speaker cabinet connected to the amp. That speaker cabinet actually gives the sound a lot more balls....that cabinet always did that..something special about those cabinets.

In any event, other than a phaser pedal, I've got all the effects I need...and while not overly impressive (my guitar collection is much more impressive), I could play small clubs with this rig. But in the end, it still doesn't give me exactly the sound I'm looking for.
I'm a big fan of the 80s metal sound...and I've been trying for 20 years to get it perfect...never actually achieving that. Someone told me not too long ago that my amp should suffice in the overdrive/distortion area...moreso than any pedal. I'm starting to doubt that. Same goes for delay...does this amp really give me the same kind of control over my delay that a dedicated delay pedal would provide.
I was at guitar center last weekend, and some kid was playing through one of the new boss pedal boards...and it just sounded wicked. Thing is, even if I bought one of those, I'm not a patient enough guy to sit and dick with controls for hours on end. I'd much rather have the goddamm thing setup exactly how I want it, and plug in and go.

I think it's fair to say, that even guys with higher end amplifiers (marshal heads, mesa rectifiers, etc) still use distortion pedals as part of their rigs. So why is it folks tell me to use just the amp for my sound. It just doesn't seem like the thing most guys do.

I guess where I'm going with this is, I'd love to hear what some of you have done to get that perfect hard rock sound...with the perfect level of distortion, delay, chorus, phase, etc. I'm a little tired of knowing everything about my guitars, but having very little knowledge of my amps/effects.
What kind of effects would you recommend to achieve just an all around good hard rock sound...one with sort of a great 80s feel.

Thanks for reading my post. I'd love to get some recommendations. I'm still thinking of picking up a distortion pedal...but I want something that's going to sound perfect..with little setup involved.

Thanks agian.

[Trussrod]

I think it's fair to say, that even guys with higher end amplifiers (marshal heads, mesa rectifiers, etc) still use distortion pedals as part of their rigs. So why is it folks tell me to use just the amp for my sound. It just doesn't seem like the thing most guys do.

I guess where I'm going with this is, I'd love to hear what some of you have done to get that perfect hard rock sound...with the perfect level of distortion, delay, chorus, phase, etc. I'm a little tired of knowing everything about my guitars, but having very little knowledge of my amps/effects.
What kind of effects would you recommend to achieve just an all around good hard rock sound...one with sort of a great 80s feel.

I use a rack mount Rocktron compressor and either a 30 band graphic EQ or a parametric EQ. IMO distortion boxes don't help an amp that already has a good distortion channel (at least the old boxes didn't). Getting the EQ and compression right is a fine art and some people who constantly change the adjustment on these two effects get different but remarkably good tones. Compression and EQ are great for low-volume high-gain distortion but at high volume you might not get any added distortion from them. In the 80's rack stuff was popular and IMO better than the available stomp boxes at the time. These days there are some great stomp boxes but I still haven't made the switch yet.

[Nightbat]

I've yet to find a stompbox capable of equalling or surpassing a 19" preamp
...apart from 'floor' preamps, whict are simply the same without the rackmount ears

[markD]

well, my rig is pretty elaborate but i am VERY pleased with it. to get versatilty, i use pedals and a rack, a tube reverb unit, amp reverb, clean, clean with an overdrive pedal, amp distortion, amp distortion with a clean boost for leads....it makes for a nightmare to set up live. i just took my new rig out friday night for a gig. here is a diagram i made to help me keep it laid out in my head:



it worked amazingly well and it only took 8 minutes to set-up on stage. got it cleared off in 6. i was relieved. we were opening for "the ghostriders" - some southern rock super-group - and we were on a TIGHT schedule. so being able to set this rig up in such a short amount of time was great!!

one of the things that i like about is that, with the addition of the mxr classic distortion and the fender reverb plugged into the front of the amp, i have some "classic" tones available. one of our new songs calls for a "trashier" type of overdrive, as oppossed to my normal heavy tone, and the mxr and fender reverb give me a sound that is still thick and overdriven, but not overly distorted. when i kick in the hyper-fuzz (which is set for clean boost) for a lead, i still get all the smooth sustain that i want.

as far as how to "set up" the OD and phase pedals, it is pretty easy. my signal hits the wah first, then to the hyper-fuzz, then the phase 90, then the OD. i set it up this way because i like my wah signal to pass through all the other effects (plus i like the way it reduces the treble from the guitar). the clean boost is next so it adds extra sustain to the wah sound, and hits the other pedals/amp harder. the phase 90 is next because it sounded best in that spot for me. the OD comes last because if i am NOT using the amp distortion, i want the phase on the guitar, NOT the distortion. if i AM using the amp distortion, then the phase is STILL on the guitar as it hits the front end of the amp. i get that swesome dave murray lead sound from the early iron maiden albums. i chose the mxr because i can manipulate the knob with my foot while i play to increase/decrease the amount of phase shifting during the lead.

this new set-up gives me all the flexibility of a modelling amp while still using tubes and a lot of analog gear. of course, my rack effects are digital. i run those in a wet/dry set-up through the effects loop of the amp. my rivera is a 60 watt X 2 stereo head. it is KILLER because i can keep my dry signal and use the other "amp" for all the effects. there are some cool ones set-up too. my main sound is a slight delay on the wet side with a light chorus across both amps. that is on ALL the time, with my clean and dirty tones. i have a leslie patch that swirls the sound across the speakers. i have a couple of harmonizer patches set up too. those are sweet because i still have my dry signal coming out of 2x12s, then a min 3rd harmony (or a 5th, or a maj 7th) out of 2x12s. i have 9 patches i use live. using the wet/dry rig is cool because i have a lot of routing options, so the effects can be run in the way that maximizes the "effect" i am looking for. WAY cooler than just using a mono parallel or series loop.

it's really not that big of a bitch to control either. the rivera has a function called "slavemaster" which i use a mute. i put a 1/4" adapter into the return jack and when i step on the "slavemaster" button on the footswitch, it mutes the entire system. the effects loop stays on all the time. i control the rack with the midimate. i like that controller because you can name your patches, so you can see which ones you are using by name. very easy!!!

i have 2 custom made pedal boards. 1 is two tiered, and has the midimate on top and the rivera controller on the bottom. the other is just my stomp boxes. both are powered. the stomp board slaves to the controller board, which then runs to the rack for power.

anyway, that is my way of getting the ultimate 80's metal sound, which i use in a female fronted pop rock band. hope this was informative!!!!

[veniculum]

Dude...your rig is as elaborate as my home network (of course, I do computers for a living). I wish I had that kind of knowledge...but....and it's a pretty big BUT...I'm still trying to put a band back together..so there's no immediate need...and second...while I appreciate the time and effort involved in achieving a certain sound, I really don't think I have the patience to do something that detailed. As I mentioned in my post, I've always been a simple simon...guitar, amp...and maybe a delay pedal. I graduated to a pedal board (tube driven, with delay and chorus...and a built in noise gate - which killed my sustain, unfortunately.) That board was pretty cool, and I still have it.

Most rigs I'm seeing today are heads and pedals (sometimes with with some rack effects thrown in). I'd much prefer the perfect pedal board. Like I said, I've seen some pretty cool stuff at GC...and yet...even those are friggin complicated..at least for me.

Tell you what...I think what it comes down to is, I need to hire a contractor Anyone in the central jersey area good with this stuff...I need some help getting my sound....I've already got the guitars covered!

Thanks again for the replies...and thanks mark, for the diagram and in-depth description of your rig

[warlok]

Holy shit... That gives "pretty elaborate" a new meaning!!

Here's a few answers that I've gotten on some of this stuff. Most people who use, like you said, high end (or high gain) amps and still use a pedal aren't using distortion pedals. They're using overdrive pedals to push the tubes harder for more gain... from the amp, not a different distortion sound from the pedal. Make sense? I think I said it right. Like a Tubescreamer, Boss SD-1, or many, many others. I think every amp that I've played with needed a good EQ, most of the time in the loop instead of before the input. It just seems to bring out the low end grunt, or the mids etc. (if you like), and smooths out highs, basically more control than the amps EQ section lets you have. Some also use an EQ for overdrive or a volume boost because some have level and/or gain controls. Some also just use the OD or EQ pedal for a solo boost to cut through the mix better.
For effects, I always used a Digitech RP-12 into a SS head. I liked it until I had money for tube amps and realized that I liked the overall sound better and wanted to just "color" it some with effects, not really change it. I don't have tons of cash and can't justify spending tons anyway as I just play at home so I've looked around and found lots of cheaper stuff I like. I try to get analog pedals with true bypass so when they're off, they don't change anything at all. My setup is guitar - Peavey Ultra Plus Head - Carvin 4X12 with Celestion G12t-100's. All in the loop I have: from the send... Korg Pitchblack tuner - MXR 10 band EQ - Eagletone Chorus (cheap but sounds great) - MXR Smart Gate - Biyang Delay (another cheapy that sounds great) - efx return. That's all I've found I needed except I'm getting an OD pedal for when I want to get into the "nutty amount of gain" territory. I'm by no means a guru but hope it helps some. Good luck!!

Oh, BTW - I have a POD 2.0 hooked to the PC studio and there's some kickass stuff in that customtone.com!! I know the 2.0 has the "direct/A.I.R." switch to go direct or play through am amp. Does the pocket pod have that? How are you using the POD?

[Endrik]

80's tone without pedals is very easy to get, Marshall Plexi and all the knobs to 10.

[Inazone]

I prefer simple gear that doesn't take much tweaking to sound good. If I can't just turn a couple of knobs to get what I want, it's not for me. For effects, I like the simplicity of the Boss ME-50, as everything is more or less set up like the corresponding Boss stompboxes. I've even used it for distortion straight into a tube power amp, and it was good enough to get me through gigs where I didn't have the floor space for my usual pedalboard. If I do have room, I run a homemade pedalboard consisting of various stompboxes (and one "floor preamp" as Nightbat mentioned) that require minimal setup and are easy to operate live. As with the Boss ME-50, it all runs to a tube power amp.

Aside from my ART Xtreme preamp pedal, the most useful pedal I have is a Tech 21 Boost D.L.A. that - in addition to the delay effect itself - has a volume boost and tone control that are great for dialing in a solo tone that stands out.

[veniculum]

Oh, BTW - I have a POD 2.0 hooked to the PC studio and there's some kickass stuff in that customtone.com!! I know the 2.0 has the "direct/A.I.R." switch to go direct or play through am amp. Does the pocket pod have that? How are you using the POD?

The pocket pod actually has an out to an amp. And for the first time, last night, I plugged it in and checked out my various pre-set tones. The one i use all the time (with headphones) didn't sound bad...but it definitely lacked the balls (for lack of a better term) than when I'm playing with headphones on.

It's funny...ever since I can remember, I've always loved the way my guitars sounded when I played through these little "walkman-like" devices. 20 years ago, it was a Rockman...a few years later I had something similar...I don't remember the brand, and I have no idea what ever happened to that thing...but it sounded killer too. Nowadays, the Pocket Pod is just light years ahead of those other devices. And the fact that it's pretty simple to use, setup, connect to the computer and download tones...I really don't mind the initial setup. Some of these more elaborate pedal boards and rack effects are just way out of my league...and I'll admit it. That's why, even a great pedal board with everything included, would probably be my weapon of choice..the prospect of getting that setup frustrates me before I even have the damn thing!

Thanks again for the replies. And remember...my offer still stands...Looking for a tone consultant in the central jersey area!

Todd

[bluesymetal]

Hey man, I'm in central Jersey and like to talk tones, etc... I've run rack stuff in the past and recently simplified my rig to my amp and some pedals. I also play in a Philly based band that plays a lot of shows, www.myspace.com/downstruck so I have a pretty good grasp on what gear holds up, sounds good (get lots of tone compliments) with the band and quick ways to set up/ tear down. I'd be willing to help out in my free time. If I were you I'd just get a 2 channel tube amp like a splawn quickrod or mesa stiletto, or even a 5150 and run a good reverb and delay in the loop, with maybe a chorus/flanger/phase and wah out front. I wouldn't go down the distortion pedal route, the amps I listed have more then enough gain and sustain to do what you want. A lot of the distortion pedals you see guys using are actually overdrives set as clean boosts to either tighten up the bottom end of their amps or make leads a little more fluid. I'm a younger guy (25) but always like helping out.

EDIT: also wanted to add that you don't have to spend a ton of dough to get great tones. I opened for Stephen Pearcey about a year ago and his guitar players were using a peavey ultra plus and a JSX into another bands cabs and their tone was bitchin!

The pocket pod actually has an out to an amp. And for the first time, last night, I plugged it in and checked out my various pre-set tones. The one i use all the time (with headphones) didn't sound bad...but it definitely lacked the balls (for lack of a better term) than when I'm playing with headphones on.

It's funny...ever since I can remember, I've always loved the way my guitars sounded when I played through these little "walkman-like" devices. 20 years ago, it was a Rockman...a few years later I had something similar...I don't remember the brand, and I have no idea what ever happened to that thing...but it sounded killer too. Nowadays, the Pocket Pod is just light years ahead of those other devices. And the fact that it's pretty simple to use, setup, connect to the computer and download tones...I really don't mind the initial setup. Some of these more elaborate pedal boards and rack effects are just way out of my league...and I'll admit it. That's why, even a great pedal board with everything included, would probably be my weapon of choice..the prospect of getting that setup frustrates me before I even have the damn thing!

Thanks again for the replies. And remember...my offer still stands...Looking for a tone consultant in the central jersey area!

Todd

[roodyrocker]

I think markD's rig is pretty freakin' cool! I can understand how that would intimidate some people but hey, if it can be set up in 8 minutes and torn down in 6 its probably not as bad as you'd think. I'm one of those guys who is not entirely loyal to either rack or pedal setups so I feel comfortable with both I have various setups depending on what amp I'm using. For example with my Marshall RR there is no loop, no channel switching, etc... so everything must go through the front end of the amp and for this I use high end pedals currently running them through a true bypass looper. That way they are out of the signal path when not in use. I'am however working on an even better system using the GigRig Pro 14 which will allow switching on/off various combinations of pedals, solo boost, etc... Its also great for older vintage pedals which may have mismatched outputs and allows you to run those with your newer stuff and sound great! I ran into problems with volume drops in the past with pedals like the Smallstone Phaser and ended up getting rid of it for that reason.
For amps like my Bogner Uberschall anything I've run through the loop kills my tone whether rack or pedals so I go through the front end with pedals once again. The loop button is used as a solo boost.
With my Mesa Tri-Axis/2:90 power amp, I run a G-Major for effects and can run it all in stereo which sounds great! The same G-Major that kills the tone of my Uberschall if in its loop sounds fantastic with the Tri-Axis rack setup. Things just have to be properly matched up.
Other rigs I've run are ADA MP-1 and Randall RM-4 for rack setups. The ADA rig was back in the late 80's and the Randall more recently. There is no wrong way and you can get great tone with either setup, pedals or rack gear. Use good cables to connect it all, eliminate noise with proper levels and tweaking as well as ensuring a good clean powere supply/conditioner. I gig my 100w Marshall non-master volume Rhoads amp regularly and I don't even need to use a noise gate or anything on it. Its that qiuet!

[veniculum]

Hey man, I'm in central Jersey and like to talk tones, etc... I've run rack stuff in the past and recently simplified my rig to my amp and some pedals. I also play in a Philly based band that plays a lot of shows, www.myspace.com/downstruck so I have a pretty good grasp on what gear holds up, sounds good (get lots of tone compliments) with the band and quick ways to set up/ tear down. I'd be willing to help out in my free time. If I were you I'd just get a 2 channel tube amp like a splawn quickrod or mesa stiletto, or even a 5150 and run a good reverb and delay in the loop, with maybe a chorus/flanger/phase and wah out front. I wouldn't go down the distortion pedal route, the amps I listed have more then enough gain and sustain to do what you want. A lot of the distortion pedals you see guys using are actually overdrives set as clean boosts to either tighten up the bottom end of their amps or make leads a little more fluid. I'm a younger guy (25) but always like helping out.

EDIT: also wanted to add that you don't have to spend a ton of dough to get great tones. I opened for Stephen Pearcey about a year ago and his guitar players were using a peavey ultra plus and a JSX into another bands cabs and their tone was bitchin!

Where in Central Jersey are you? Not only am I lookin for somebody with some setup experience, I'm looking to start jamming again. It's been over ten years since I've gigged...and I really miss it now. Problem is, there must be a real abundance of guitar players, because I can't seem to find anything/anybody looking. And starting clean without at least a bassist and/or a drummer is pretty tough. It's certainly not as bad as it was in the mid-90s's...when everyone was staring at their feet. The kind of up-beat, more melodic rock/metal that myself and former bandmates played was just so not-90s. Then theirs marriage, kids....and before you know it...you wanna get back out there. It's ironic because I'm certainly a better player now...and despite being 37 years old, I'm still pretty young in my mind and my motivation.
Anyway...thanks again for the post...I'd love some help getting things setup...and I think it's really cool you got to meet Pearcey's band. Ratt and DiMartini is some of my favorite guitar stuff

Todd

[bluesymetal]

I'm not to far from Great Adventure if you know where that is. It's really a little more south central Jersey. Shoot me a PM or something man, I'm really busy between my current band, work and my family (just got engaged) but I can always make room to jam and talk shop man. I try to play with as many people as possible, just to learn if nothing else. My drummer is the same way and is down for whatever. I just mentioned Pearcey because I thougt it was funny the guys he had playing for him were using a 300 and 600 dollar amp used prices. They were killer players though, all they did was old RATT songs and they nailed them. Stephen told us one of the guys in his band used to mow his lawn, that's how they met lol, I don't know if he was kidding or not but that's pretty cool. Oh if your on facebook you can find me through our bands site there too, I check that more often then I'm on these boards.

[catzodellamarina]

That's an impressive graphic.
This may sound silly but when I think of 80's tone I also think of 2 sounds - Pop rock 80's or Hairband 80's. When I play at home I jam to both. The pop stuff (ie: Tears for Fears, Duran, Nik Kershaw, Simple Minds) always reminds me of the tone I got with my old Zoom pocket unit or Rockman - compressed, filtered, soft distortion, delays. 80's hairband has more bite, less filtering, delays - like Ratt, Scorpions. With my rack, I can dial in pop tones. Many of the presets seem to throw in everything but the kitchen sink. When it comes to 80's hair, I fiddle over n' over because I'm more picky with those tones. I usually just give up and keep it simple, plugging into my combo and apply one sound to all. Afterall, there's no critics in my basement.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

there are so many ways to go. my lead guitarist used a POD XT Live into the return of a Crate Powerblock. -$500 setup new. i use a DSL 100 with a boss TU-2 & SD-1 in front, with a CE-2 and Satriani Delay pedal in the loop.
the tones he gets works for him. i personally prefer the feel of an actual tube amp.