Modeling vs Tube amps live

[jgcable]

There are countless threads on this topic. I have participated in many of them, I have started many of them.
I just want to spark an always interesting topic because the forum has been a little bland lately.
THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT LIVE PLAYING IN A BAND. I am not interested in how good your amp sounds at home. Sorry.
I have heard just about every modeling rig live. Some players are extremely knowledgable, some are horrible and have no idea what they are doing. Axe FX, Eleven, countless Line 6 products. These rigs have been FRFR set ups, SS power amps, tube power amps, all kinds of cabinets, mono, stereo, direct into the PA etc... pretty much every type of set up you can imagine.
My opinion is that modeling amps no matter what brand or how they are set up live still sound thin, processed and fake. For instance...
I saw a very popular cover band that had one guitarist with a Marshall TSL100 with a 4 x 12 Marshall cab and the other guy had an Axe FX rig running through a Mesa Boogie tube power amp and a 4 x 12 Mesa cabinet.
The Axe FX rig had incredible tone. It was crystal clear. Every patch he set up for every song was spot on dialed in perfect. It sounded just like the record. He was a great player too. Problem was... the Marshall TSL100 player who was using nothing other than his guitar plugged into the front of the amp was crapping all over the other guy. When they played together it sounded great. When the TSL player stopped playing it sounded like they had a backing track looped through the PA. The Axe FX just didn't have the presence live. It didn't push the air. It didn't sound real.
I have also heard many bands using the Line 6 rigs that are Bogner powered. I have never heard one live that sounded anywhere near as good as a real amp. Great tone, spot on in fact. Just not real. The sound is always the same no matter what modeling rig I hear. Thin, not enough presence and either too much woofy bottom end or too much shrill high end. There is never enough midrange.
NOW WHEN IT COMES TO CLEAN TONES THATS A DIFFERENT STORY.
The best clean tones I have ever heard live have come from modeling rigs.
So.. so summarize... to my ears. LIVE.... modeling amps win for cleans and fail miserably for high gain tones.
I used to think that if you were in a 1 guitar band you had a better chance with a modeling amp because there was no reference "real" amp to compare your tone with. I no longer think thats true. I saw a killer band that had one guitar and they were doing all DIO and ACCEPT cover tunes. The band flat out killed. The guitar player was playing a Bogner powered Line 6 half stack. His guitar tone was outstanding but it was thin and had no ballz at all. Good thing they had a killer bass player and drummer.
FLAME ON.

[Hellbat]

I'd generally agree with the point about modelling and clean vs. distored. My 11 rack nails Fender and Vox clean tones. The higher gain stuff still has a bit of the digital fizz on it. With the expansion pack updated 11 rack you can dial a lot of it out with the speaker breakup paramater but it's still there a bit. But when I play with the band it's old school pedalboard into 1x12 open back 50 watt tube combo. I could live with the 11 rack into FOH and monitors though and it is a lot lighter to carry around!

[jgcable]

I wish modeling sounded better live for high gain because I love it. Its so much fun dialing in perfect tones and jamming at home with a good modeling amp to my favorite music.
I wonder why the engineers who developed the latest modeling rigs had no problem dialing in perfect clean tones but they have such a hard time with high gain. Especially Marshall based high gain.
I thought the Axe FX was going to sound better live after the countless incredible clips posted online. Some of those YouTube clips actually sound better than the real amps. Then.. I heard a few of them live recently. Not impressed at all. I could tell immediately that it was a modeling amp. None of the fans of the band could tell though. I guess thats really what matters. I think the bands would have sounded better if the guitar players used traditional tube amps.

[VanHoosen]

What I find funny about digital modeling is that it's always trying to sound like a tube amp. Just think about the jackass that spent hours and hours writing a bunch of code that would make 1s and 0s sound like raw power. The people that put these together are obviously trying to imitate the real thing, so there's little chance - in my opinion - that they're ever going to actually improve the tube sound through digital means. This is painfully evident in a live setting. So much so that I have to ask why you would even waste your time with modeling?

[jgcable]

I listened to an interview with Satch and he was talking about the personality of lead guitar playing. How too perfect is forgettable and that the greatest guitar solo's of all time are the ones that aren't technically perfect. I think that modeling amps suffer from that exact thing.
I also think that the one thing that all modeling rigs lack in regards to high gain tones is midrange. It must be easy for engineers to model low end, scooped mids and high end sizzle. It must be extremely difficult for engineers to model midrange and midgain tones.
Also, even though there are a fair amount of live players using rigs like the Axe FX live the vast majority... I would say 98% at least... are using traditional tube amps. Out of these players, the pro's could afford anything they want live and they almost always choose traditional guitar amps. Marshall, Mesa, Bogner, Diezel, Fender, Laney, Randall. The ones that are looking for specific signature tones have modded versions of these amps or boutique versions of them. If they need more than a few tones they have more than a few tube amps and a complicated amp switching system. All this so that they could play out of tube amps live. Now... riddle me this batman... why do 98% of the pro's who could afford anything use complicated tube amp set ups with complicated switching systems when they can just grab an Axe FX or some other modeling rig and have everything they need live?

[Axegrinder87]

I use a Spider Valve MKII and BURY my rhythm guitarists Dual Rec in the mix. Not thin at all. Much fatter compared to the Mesa, which sounds grainy at high gain and volume levels. And I'm running mine at 50 watts

[jgcable]

I use a Spider Valve MKII and BURY my rhythm guitarists Dual Rec in the mix. Not thin at all. Much fatter compared to the Mesa, which sounds grainy at high gain and volume levels. And I'm running mine at 50 watts

You need to tell your rhythm guitar player to turn his Dual Recto off of standby!!!!

[jgcable]

You need to tell your rhythm guitar player to turn his Dual Recto off of standby!!!!

One quick story regarding an old school modeling amp.. the Line 6 Vetta II. I had a full stack Vetta rig. I had my tones dialed in and I was wreaking havoc to all that stood before me and near me with my most awesome rig. I didn't think guitar tone could get any better. This is about 7 years ago or so when the Vetta II just came out.
Anyway... my buddy joins the band. He is a guitar player. He shows up with a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and an oversized Mesa 4 x 12 cab. Now you would think I win right? I have more watts and I have a full stack. Thats 8 speakers!! Twice as many for all you math challenged JCF'rs. He spends about 5 minutes setting up his rig. Maybe 10. We start off with Master of Puppets and plan on going into Sanitarium followed by Restless and Wild and ending with Seek and Destroy. Yea.. we were old school metal heads. Half way into Master of Puppets I realize that my amp must have turned off because I can no longer hear it. I go over and sure enough its on so I turn up the master volume. I had to get to a point where my speakers were woofing and it was entirely too loud for me to hear my guitar. His volume didn't seem to be nearly as loud as mine yet he cut through like a hot knife with total clarity and punch. You could feel his guitar. You could only barely hear mine.
So.... I dumped the Vetta and bought a Marshall 2210 and a Marshall 1960B cab and thats when I realized what I was missing with the Vetta. The Marshall had so much presence live that I had to dial it down because it was crapping all over the Dual Recto.

[Axegrinder87]

You need to tell your rhythm guitar player to turn his Dual Recto off of standby!!!!

HA! I like that. True story though bro...

And I'm not biased, honestly. I'd rather have a Mesa+Marshall rig. But for the money, and functionality, the Line6 Bogner hit the nail on the head for me. I love being able to change patches at ease instead of tapdancing and tripping over pedals. The Marshall tones are terrible though, but I think that's to be expected with a 6l6 power section.

[javert]

What I find funny about digital modeling is that it's always trying to sound like a tube amp. Just think about the jackass that spent hours and hours writing a bunch of code that would make 1s and 0s sound like raw power. The people that put these together are obviously trying to imitate the real thing, so there's little chance - in my opinion - that they're ever going to actually improve the tube sound through digital means. This is painfully evident in a live setting. So much so that I have to ask why you would even waste your time with modeling?

There are many reasons. Most of them should be pretty obvious, like flexibility, weight, price, etc., not to mention all the practical problems associated with recording and live performances. As for the other remarks, companies have to earn to exist. In other words, they have to deliver a product consumers want. Presently, what consumers want is what they know. There's no reason that in the future we can't go beyond what tube amps or other analog hardware can do. In many ways, we already have.

[javert]

Also, even though there are a fair amount of live players using rigs like the Axe FX live the vast majority... I would say 98% at least... are using traditional tube amps. Out of these players, the pro's could afford anything they want live and they almost always choose traditional guitar amps. Marshall, Mesa, Bogner, Diezel, Fender, Laney, Randall. The ones that are looking for specific signature tones have modded versions of these amps or boutique versions of them. If they need more than a few tones they have more than a few tube amps and a complicated amp switching system. All this so that they could play out of tube amps live. Now... riddle me this batman... why do 98% of the pro's who could afford anything use complicated tube amp set ups with complicated switching systems when they can just grab an Axe FX or some other modeling rig and have everything they need live?

I think you're right that it boils down to flexibility being the most important point (multiple amps, reamping in studioes, smaller rigs etc.). As for things not sounding "right" live, people have tweaked traditional amp setups for many years, and it's probably going to take some time before people figure out all the details with the modelers. I think the most flexibile solution is going to win in the end. Mind you, I'm saying this even though I'm still using my tube amps (an Engl rack setup and a Mark V) with my band at rehersal and live. I don't have much time to tinker with my setup, so I'm going with what I know works. I suspect it's the same for most people and even studios and concert organizers. Also, these are still fairly new, everything considered, and it's going to take time before the community embraces and understands all the posibilities.

[javert]

One quick story regarding an old school modeling amp.. the Line 6 Vetta II. I had a full stack Vetta rig. I had my tones dialed in and I was wreaking havoc to all that stood before me and near me with my most awesome rig. I didn't think guitar tone could get any better. This is about 7 years ago or so when the Vetta II just came out.
Anyway... my buddy joins the band. He is a guitar player. He shows up with a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and an oversized Mesa 4 x 12 cab. Now you would think I win right? I have more watts and I have a full stack.

Why exactly was your rig supposed to be louder?

[javert]

And I'm not biased, honestly. I'd rather have a Mesa+Marshall rig. But for the money, and functionality, the Line6 Bogner hit the nail on the head for me. I love being able to change patches at ease instead of tapdancing and tripping over pedals. The Marshall tones are terrible though, but I think that's to be expected with a 6l6 power section.

There's that flexibility thing again

[roodyrocker]

I have tube amps and I have an Axe Fx Ultra. I can tell you its not true that the Axe Fx is going to lose out every time to a real amp in a live situation. You mentioned the band you saw where the guy used a Mesa power amp and cab with his Axe Fx. When I first got my Axe Fx I tried it through my Mesa 2:90 power amp with 4x12 Recto cab. Then A/B'd it going Axe Fx into QSC HPR powered cab. The QSC powered cab sounded so much better than the Mesa stuff that I have never plugged that Axe Fx into a anything but the QSC since. The thing is, the Axe Fx lets you run so many different configurations that anything is possible. The Axe Fx also replaced all my effects on the nights I used it live, not just amps. From a versatility standpoint I can't think of any amp that can compete with it. How it cuts through the mix depends on how you are running it. I can't speak for other systems such as the Eleven or Line 6 as my only experience running those myself live was many years ago. I had a Line 6 Pod Pro rack unit which suffered from the same fate you mentioned. Too thin live. My Axe Fx didn't suffer from that.
I still love tube amps and keep buying more. Latest one is the Cameron CCV which I hope to try live next. Bottom line is if you hear a modeler thats thin sounding in a live situation, it may not always be the modelers fault. Sometimes its the way its set up. Admittedly, I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking my Axe Fx Ultra but I figured out early on there is a huge difference depending on whether I run it through a power amp/cab vs. powered QSC boxes. A BIG difference

[Hellbat]

Sometimes it might be the sound guy too. If you've got a guy that habitually configures EQ for a miced amp applying the same EQ at the mixer to a direct out from a modeller it's going to instantly sound like ass. Not all sound guys are created equal. In fact a lot I've heard have no business being near a mixing board.