Modeling vs Tube amps live

[javert]

Sometimes it might be the sound guy too. If you've got a guy that habitually configures EQ for a miced amp applying the same EQ at the mixer to a direct out from a modeller it's going to instantly sound like ass. Not all sound guys are created equal. In fact a lot I've heard have no business being near a mixing board.

Very good point. When I made one of my previous replies, I thought about the setup being suboptimal simply because of a lack of understanding from the user, but the sound guy can fuck it up too... it's a completely different way of doing things with the new modelers.

[RobRR]

I have what I consider the best of both worlds... the Line 6 HD100 SpiderValve head. I remember when these first came out, I tried one out in GC and was very unimpressed. Fast forward a couple years later, I picked one up used and fell in love.

What I like about it is the sound, raw power, simple controls and portability.

The sound is great. It cuts right through the mix. My main channel is nice and heavy, it sounds REAL... not digital like my Vetta. The built in effects, while pretty limited, are perfect and have taught me that sometimes, less is more. On my lead channel I boost the mids and volume and have some delay in there. Clean is nice and sparkly, thouogh that only gets used in a few songs.

Power wise, I NEVER turn it up past 9 o'clock... I just dont see where you would need that kind of power honestly, most live settings are mic'd and at practice, anything more than 1/4 power will drown out my heavy hitting drummer. More than Ill ever need, and in all honesty, too much imo... Id rather a little less output so I could crank it and saturate the tubes a bit more.

Im not big on having a ton of options, so to me, the lack of "programming depth" is a plus. It lets me dial in a tone I want quickly and concentrate on playing, not fiddling.

Portability wise, its awesome being the first one set up and the first one broken down at the end of the show. I bring my head, cab and a small carry case which holds the nice 4 button/1 vol/wah footpedal, my wireless unit, and my chords. Setup is so simple, plug in the power, cab and footpedal and Im done.

Sure, there may be better sounding amps out there, but not at any local shows Ive been to. I get compliments on my tone all the time from that amp, and honestly I couldnt be happier with it. Its an entire package that no other amp, at least for me, can come close to. It has everything I need, sounds and looks good too... whats not to like?

[tomanyjacksons]

I use a Genz Benz El Diablo live and couldn't be happier with how it sounds live. I've learned on all of my prior tube amps and my current one that if you turn the gain down a bit you can get a very full sound. Too many guitarist try to get that awesome distortion and just crank the gain way up only to have a thin kind of sound. I've been a tube amp guy for awhile now. I got my start with a digital processor and a solid state amp. Ever sense I got my first tube amp I've learned the value of a good eq along with realistic gain settings when they are added together you will have a sound that most musicians will enjoy. Just my 2 cents. BTW, I'm the only guitarist in my band aside from the bass player of course and I always get compliments on my sound.

[Chief_CrazyTalk]

Interesting thread. I'm not a pro and haven't played in a live situation since high school but I thought I'd offer my two cents as an EE who went to school when analog was taught and it wasn't all semiconductor VLSI and CS/IT crap. It's as simple as this...ours is an ANALOG world. Digital is a tool, and that's all. Everything we see and hear and feel in the real world is analog...everything. Digital is only a tool, a great one at that, but in this application will never be anything more than a pale approximation.

Like I said I've never played professionally and I don't even get out to hear bands much, but it doesn't surprise me at all to hear modelers are lacking in real world situations. I had a cheap toylike modeling pedal I bought for 40 bucks once and it was fun but I gave it away. I can afford anything I want but have no use for such things as modelers. For anyone in doubt just try an old four holer Marshall...best home amp I've tried yet!

[xenophobe]

THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT LIVE PLAYING IN A BAND. I am not interested in how good your amp sounds at home. Sorry.

Mesa: People tend to turn the gain too high, scoop too much of the mids leaving too much bass and treble and in rehersal or live, it sounds thin and gets muddy with another guitarist, especially if they're running this or the Line 6. Bass can get lost in the mud.

Line 6: People tend to turn the gain way too high, put way too much bass for too much chugga chugga, great solo crunch bass thundering, way too much hiss/fizz in the background. Bass has hard time cutting through.

Those are rookie mistakes that usually get worked out after a couple of shows... At least that's my experience playing bass and guitar and observing everyone. Can't really tell you about clean tones. All I've ever needed was high gain and a humbucker.

Honestly, the Dark Terror + MXR 10 band eq is the best metal tone I've ever had. I'm using the MXR to slightly push the extra tube. It doesn't like technical death metal very well, though it's probably because I haven't dialed it in all that much, but it does epic metal/thrash/whatever perfectly. Sounds absolutely amazing... the sustain, breakup and the feedback... It doesn't need to have the low end boosted because it just sounds incredible. Let the bassist and drummer fill in the low end like they're supposed to and give you that separation that sounds professional. It's just ready to gig... a few eq tweaks to compensate for another guitars. Throw that extra 1x12 and put it in 15w mode, mic'd up. I'd say I'd be good to go. But this isn't an Orange review. lol I already know this would sound great live.

As for what's better? Both can be great as long as you've set it up well and dial it in properly... I still like the tone from my Line 6 even though my DT crushes it in almost every other respect.

[javert]

Interesting thread. I'm not a pro and haven't played in a live situation since high school but I thought I'd offer my two cents as an EE who went to school when analog was taught and it wasn't all semiconductor VLSI and CS/IT crap. It's as simple as this...ours is an ANALOG world. Digital is a tool, and that's all. Everything we see and hear and feel in the real world is analog...everything. Digital is only a tool, a great one at that, but in this application will never be anything more than a pale approximation.

Excuse me, but what a bunch of nonsense. Analog circuitry is not perfect. It makes noise, it breaks, changes characteristics over time and with temperature. And it's inflexible. In terms of many of these things, digital, programmable hardware is quite simply better in terms of specs and is cheaper. That is why more and more hardware is now digital. In terms of making approximations (i.e., modeling) something with analog or digital hardware, none of the two are perfect, but you can go way further with digital hardware than you can with analog. Funny thing is that it's actually the analog hardware that limits our quality in digital representations of signals. In the peculiar case we're discussing here, we are actually talking about modeling something analog and nonlinear with digitial hardware and software, and, as somebody else pointed out, there's not reason we can't go beyond the limitations of old analog designs. You can basically make approximations with digital hardware as good as you want as long as you're willing to pay the price for it. Sure, a lot of crap gets made, but that's also the case for analog stuff. I'm an EE too, by the way.

[Newc]

Modelers come with presets designed to get "from the record" tones i.e. Puppets, SRV, etc, so yeah, it's going to sound processed, because the CD was processed, and the preset tone was programmed to sound like the CD, not like SRV in your house. If anyone's just punching up a "Puppets" preset in a live setting so they can play Puppets in their cover band, the guitar will sound like the CD, but the drums, bass, and vocals will sound like drums, bass, and vocals in your house. I believe the technical term for that is "fucking stupid".

Sadly, a lot of people are either uninterested or not brainy enough to tweak a modeler to get rid of the fizz. Worse, they're under the impression that all they have to do is plug a magic box into any power amp and any cabinet with any speakers and with the push of a button they'll go from realistic Mesa to Marshall to Fender to whatever else tones without having to do anything beyond push the magic buttons.
That is also known as "fucking stupid".


I've heard raging 100w 4x12 Marshall cabs and all-tube heads that sound thin and wimpy because the operator did not know how to set it. I've blown away raging 100w Marshall heads and 4x12 cabs with my Digitech Legend going into a Carvin 2x12 cabinet and a Fender RocPro1000 solid state power section. Live. Because I know how to tweak effectively.
I've also heard dual-guitar bands that purposely get individual tones that are thinner than what the gear is capable of because they know that the bassist does more than hang out with the drummer and drive the van. They leave plenty of room in the bottom end for the bassist to be heard, rather than just as some low drone under the chugga wugga jigga and over the fappity fap of the kick drum with a WalMart bag for a head.

I've also set up my rack gear faster than my other guitarist could do his "guitar+cord+amp" routine because I came prepared. Rack units go in a rack, and all the cables that should be plugged into the preamp and FX units are already plugged into them. All I do is pop off the bottom cover of the case and drop cables on the floor. Each cable has a target - one for the amp return, one for the wah pedal input, one from the volume pedal output, one from the guitar, and one to the rack control pedalboard. The wah's patch cable for the volume pedal input stayed in the wah output at all times. The MIDI cables to link everything that needed to be linked were only plugged in once, and they stayed there. Patch cables to and from the preamp to the FX unit were plugged in once and stayed there.
So I can't really understand what anyone means by "takes longer to set up".

Lastly, most modelers are made so Little Johnny can sit in his basement and play along to the radio and get all those tones out of one box, and so studio players can plug into a recording desk and get whatever tone the engineer wants without dicking with amps, cabs, and mics for a 30 second radio jingle, and so hired hands for Celine Dion can walk in, plug into the board, and churn out their processed tones in any venue without dicking with amps, cabs, mics, and feedback.

They are not intended for little leaguers in bars and clubs with a mixed bag of gear. If everyone in the band has a modeler, and the drums have been pre-treated or stuffed behind a plexiglass baffle and miked properly, then yeah, it works live.

[javert]

Well said, newc.

I can't stand most of Line 6's stuff, but their stuff is also primarily targeted at beginners.

I love my rack setup too because of the simplicity of using it. All I need to do is hook up the speaker cables, the power cable and the Cat V cable connecting my foot controller with the G-System.

Speaking of my rack, I bought a Kemper recently and profiled my Engl rack. My E530 preamp has been modded, so it sounds a bit different from the standard. It sounds really, really good. I am very impressed. Now I can sit at home and record songs and ideas for songs. Plus, I can play more because I can now play in the evenings after my son's been put to bed!

[Cygnus X1]

Bookmarked!

Most of the time the audience doesn't give a rip, as long as the sound approximates
the goal somewhat.
You know the gearheads when they are looking and not actually joining in the audiences
part of the show!

[tomanyjacksons]

Amen to that brother. I've only had trouble with my out front sound once. After that I sent the sound man up told him to play my guitar and I went to the board and setup my own sound. Every now and then our sound guy has to work and whoever we get to fill in is generally told don't touch any of my settings. I use 2 e609 mics as I have 2 different brands of speakers in my 412 cab I don't run stereo but I do eq them a little differently. I think what helps our sound so much is we have a pretty good sized pa. 2 Dual 18 Carvins, 2 dual 15 Carvins and 2 dual 12 Communities. They have horns and small speakers in them also, that matched with 4 Carvin amps 2 2000 watt and 2 1500 watt with a BBE crossover and a hell of a rack set up. I come out sounding pretty wicked.

Sometimes it might be the sound guy too. If you've got a guy that habitually configures EQ for a miced amp applying the same EQ at the mixer to a direct out from a modeller it's going to instantly sound like ass. Not all sound guys are created equal. In fact a lot I've heard have no business being near a mixing board.

[Chief_CrazyTalk]

Bookmarked!

Most of the time the audience doesn't give a rip, as long as the sound approximates
the goal somewhat.
You know the gearheads when they are looking and not actually joining in the audiences
part of the show!

LOL I'd have to agree...the times I have seen bands play live lately have been in dive bars and dance halls, not concerts, and other than enjoying the music to dance to it seems the audience doesn't even pay attention to the band...let alone their gear or tones. Give me a bar full of skirts and I know what I'm interested in.

[markD]

personally, i have never been able to get modelling amps to respond to my playing dynamics live the same way as an all tube amp - but to be fair, solid state amps are the same for me. recording? i prefer modelling. live, the modelling stuff seems too "fake" for me - there seems to be a lack of complexity in the midrange...almost like there is a "grind" in the mids of a tube amp that just isn't there with a modelling amp.

[roodyrocker]

As far as setting up and tearing down goes, nothing is faster than my Axe Fx rack. Its simple, one XLR mic cable to the sound guy, another to my QSC powered box. Other than that there is nothing to do but plug in my guitar and midi cable to to switch presets. Another area where the Ax Fx shines is the effects for live use are much quieter than a multitude of pedals chained together. Since they're all in one unit there is no extra noise from cabling, mismatched boxes, etc... I'm not a diehard modeler fan but I'am fair and the Axe Fx DOES do what its designer says it will do. There was an interview with Cliff Chase (inventor of the Axe Fx) and he pointed out, rightfully so I think, that digital got a bad reputation because people were using cheap components. When you use high end components as he does it another story.

[mjtripper]

Sometimes it might be the sound guy too. If you've got a guy that habitually configures EQ for a miced amp applying the same EQ at the mixer to a direct out from a modeller it's going to instantly sound like ass. Not all sound guys are created equal. In fact a lot I've heard have no business being near a mixing board.

This happens a lot around here.

[P I K A]

I thought my modeling rig sounded good till I jammed with a guy with a tube amp. Couldnt believe (once we turned up) how bad the modeler was compared to tubes. Im with JG here as I played in bands too . Not as much as JG but no way would I use a modeler live. At home yes but not live. Seems like if I like my tone I play better. Heres a nice tube amp sound for you guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZIpHwr9RY

Just listen to it