Modeling vs Tube amps live

[jgcable]

BTW... that guitar tone did sound good.

[Chad]

There are indeed a lot of variables that make this topic a challenge. Like, for example, something as simple as defining what "good tone" is. To me, it sounds weird to hear somebody say a player had "good tone" alone but were inaudible or sounded bad when playing with a band. To me, it seems they had bad tone from the get go because I define tone in the context of a whole band when listening to an entire band. If listening to a one man band that would obviously be a different story. It's all about context.

Also, are you talking about stage sound, miked/PA/FOH sound, or both? I have played live and also helped run sound from time to time. Raw tone coming from an amp (stage volume) sounds different than when it is miked and ran through the FOH PA. My amp is tweaked to sound best when miked through a PA with a band because that is how I play almost all the time. If I were a one man show and/or not miked I would likely run different settings on my gear. Again, it's all about context.

It all comes down to a synergy of gear and tweaking within the given context. To be more specific, what sounds good is a combination of a good amp (or modeler or whatever) that is properly tweaked, properly miked (or proper cab/mic sim selection/tweaking), a good P.A. system, a room with good acoustics, and a sound man who knows how to make all of that sound the best it can be within the context of the other instruments on stage. Of course, good playing is a given.

In summary, I have heard tube amps that sound good and ones that sound terrible. I have heard modelers that sound good and ones that sound terrible. Nothing leads me to believe that those conclusions are drawn purely because of what the gear is, but rather how it is tweaked and implemented for the setting in which it is being used.

[jgcable]

There are indeed a lot of variables that make this topic a challenge. Like, for example, something as simple as defining what "good tone" is. To me, it sounds weird to hear somebody say a player had "good tone" alone but were inaudible or sounded bad when playing with a band. To me, it seems they had bad tone from the get go because I define tone in the context of a whole band when listening to an entire band. If listening to a one man band that would obviously be a different story. It's all about context.

Also, are you talking about stage sound, miked/PA/FOH sound, or both? I have played live and also helped run sound from time to time. Raw tone coming from an amp (stage volume) sounds different than when it is miked and ran through the FOH PA. My amp is tweaked to sound best when miked through a PA with a band because that is how I play almost all the time. If I were a one man show and/or not miked I would likely run different settings on my gear. Again, it's all about context.

It all comes down to a synergy of gear and tweaking within the given context. To be more specific, what sounds good is a combination of a good amp (or modeler or whatever) that is properly tweaked, properly miked (or proper cab/mic sim selection/tweaking), a good P.A. system, a room with good acoustics, and a sound man who knows how to make all of that sound the best it can be within the context of the other instruments on stage. Of course, good playing is a given.

In summary, I have heard tube amps that sound good and ones that sound terrible. I have heard modelers that sound good and ones that sound terrible. Nothing leads me to believe that those conclusions are drawn purely because of what the gear is, but rather how it is tweaked and implemented for the setting in which it is being used.

Well said but the thing that concerns me more about modeling vs tubes live is presence... not tone. I conceed that modeling amps have great tone. The problem is they don't have the presence live.

[chrisolson]

Do you suppose that's because the toolbox has so many tools in it, and guys using modelers like to use all the tools available? It kinda dilutes the sound.

Case in point - I don't play out, but get some kickass tones from my gear. BUT...if I were in a band situation, I'd likely dump all the effects I use. Having someone else in the room would drown me out. I get that. Some people don't. Same with eq'ing - people go for the recorded tones they hear on a CD, but it isn't reality. Some guitar players don't get that you shouldn't necessarily sound "hi-fi", and full tone - hence so many guitarists bitching about "lack of low end" and such. You try to replicate that live, and you have a hot mess on your hands. The mix becomes more important.

In the right context - two guys playing and BOTH using modeling amps, you'd probably be alright, and I've heard that before with the first generation Flextones, and this band was AMAZING in a live setting. That said, the drummer, bassist, and keyboard guys didn't overplay, so they blended well.

[Chad]

Well said but the thing that concerns me more about modeling vs tubes live is presence... not tone. I conceed that modeling amps have great tone. The problem is they don't have the presence live.

Again, are you talking about the stage mix, the FOH/PA mix, or both?

From my perspective, if the tone doesn't have presence, then it isn't good tone to begin with. And it is possible to get presence with modelers because I've heard it live.

[markD]

Do you suppose that's because the toolbox has so many tools in it, and guys using modelers like to use all the tools available? It kinda dilutes the sound.

Case in point - I don't play out, but get some kickass tones from my gear. BUT...if I were in a band situation, I'd likely dump all the effects I use. Having someone else in the room would drown me out. I get that. Some people don't. Same with eq'ing - people go for the recorded tones they hear on a CD, but it isn't reality. Some guitar players don't get that you shouldn't necessarily sound "hi-fi", and full tone - hence so many guitarists bitching about "lack of low end" and such. You try to replicate that live, and you have a hot mess on your hands. The mix becomes more important.

my live tone and my recorded tone are apples and oranges. as is well documented here, i use rivera tube amps - and have for many years. i want to bounce of what chris has said and go through the difference in my tones/approaches for live vs. the studio.

live:

* 4x12 cabinets with EV speakers.
* amp settings - (gain channel) gain: 8 bass: 6 mids: 7 treb: 3 pres: 4 master: 5 both gain boosts are activated also to give me "maximum crunch and sustain" - my amp only gets as hot as a modded JCM800/boogie MK1-2, though...no modern metal tones here!!

(clean channel) gain: 3 treb: 7 mids: 6 bass: 4 master: 10

* rivera has several other features to tweak the tone (similar to mesa's "simul-class"). i run the power amp on pentode and full power. that is giving me a LOUD and robust 120 watts onstage. the EQ looks weird, but i allow the volume to add back the highs. if the amp is turned down, it sounds muddy. turned up to stage volume, it sounds tight, full and powerful.

* effects - i run minimal effects live. a vox wah, an mxr phase 90 for pedals, and in the effects loop i have a roctron super C noise reduction, and a delay set to 20% so it is only noticeable when i am playing single notes. my live sound seems dry even though i have the delay on all the time. each song has a separate delay patch, but the feedback and mix levels are all the same - 20% feedback, 20% delay level/100% dry level.

a couple years ago i was running a semi-massive wet/dry rig where i had one cab 100% wet with effect and another 100% dry. when a sound man would get it right it was cool, but most of the time my rig sounded HORRIBLE!!!!!! i'd watch back live videos and i would be sad at how poorly my sound was mixed FOH. that's when i went back to a more streamlined rig.

initially i went the wet/dry rig for 2 reasons - 1. i had the gear (lol) 2. i wanted to recreate onstage what i was doing in the studio. it ended up being a season of disaster. i think i did 6-8 months of shows with the wet/dry before i streamlined.


studio:

* 2x10, 1x12, 4x12 cabs - each with different types of speakers for different colors. sometimes i will even run the line out or effects send into a line 6 POD and record a direct signal with a clean amp model and a modeled cab. i have done the same recording into pro-tools and processed the amp DI through amplitube.

* i have straight up used the line 6 POD or the IK multimedia amplitube instead of an amp, or blended with an amp - often splitting the signal with a direct box.

* when it comes to recording a rivera:
(gain channel) gain: variable (depends on the song - often i use LESS to sound heavier) bass: just enough to fill out the sound mids: just enough to give the sound body treb: just enough to give the sound clarity master: 4-5 gain boosts: gain 1 is used if i want a little more compression, gain 2 is used if i want a drier crunch. i will often record with a tiny bit of the amp reverb also.

(clean channel) gain: 2-4 treb: 6-10 mids: 2-3 bass: 2-4 master: 6-10 i will often pull the mid shift and record with more of a blackface tone - though usually i will just grab my blackface tremolux to record clean tones. i always record clean sounds with amp reverb, or using a spring reverb plug-in.

* at the end of the day, my recorded tones are always wimpier and wetter than my live tones. when i record i double track tones. on occassion i will record with my live tone, especially for leads or layering - once less gainy parts have been recorded for punch and clarity.

sometimes there is quite a bit of re-EQing during mixdown - tweaking specific frequencies to make everything blend "just right". i tend to roll off a tiny bit off bass too so that the bass guitar has a place in the mix. i always use the bass cut-off on my mixer (i use a mackie 32-8 for mixing) on guitars also. often delay and chorus is added to rythym guitars across an aux buss to help them blend better. if i were to try and recreate that live, i would end up with a sterile tone onstage that sounded crappy. especially since i am in a one guitar band.

on a side note, one of the things i have noticed most local bands doing, regardless of what type of amp they are using, is trying to sound ULTRA BRUTAL live. they pile on WAY too much gain, boost the lows WAY too much, scoop the mids and boost the highs. it doesn't sund BRUTAL - it sounds ass-tacular.

man, i hope this made sense...my brain is fucked up today!!

[Chad]

on a side note, one of the things i have noticed most local bands doing, regardless of what type of amp they are using, is trying to sound ULTRA BRUTAL live. they pile on WAY too much gain, boost the lows WAY too much, scoop the mids and boost the highs. it doesn't sund BRUTAL - it sounds ass-tacular.

I think a big part of the problem is that most players do the majority of practice at home alone, so they dial in a something that sounds good to them in their house. Using this same tone in a live setting is a recipe for terrible tone. Not only are there Fletcher-Munson issues at play simply because of the typical volume difference between home and live playing, but also what sounds good alone doesn't always sound good with a band through a PA system.

The more complicated a rig is, the more potential for the less knowledgeable to screw things up. I think this is one reason why tube amps often sound better live. Less knobs equals less to mess up. In the right hands, a modeler can sound really good, but a lot of people simply don't have the patience and skill to properly dial them in, so they end up sounding like crap more often.

[markD]

I think a big part of the problem is that most players do the majority of practice at home alone, so they dial in a something that sounds good to them in their house. Using this same tone in a live setting is a recipe for terrible tone. Not only are there Fletcher-Munson issues at play simply because of the typical volume difference between home and live playing, but also what sounds good alone doesn't always sound good with a band through a PA system.

The more complicated a rig is, the more potential for the less knowledgeable to screw things up. I think this is one reason why tube amps often sound better live. Less knobs equals less to mess up. In the right hands, a modeler can sound really good, but a lot of people simply don't have the patience and skill to properly dial them in, so they end up sounding like crap more often.

i totally agree. i have my live rig at my band's rehearsal space. i practice at home with other amps or, ironically, a modeller. regarding the "sounds good alone" thing...totally!! my stage rig does NOT sound great by itself. it sounds too "honky" and is missing low-end. but....add the rest of the band and it is killer.

[jgcable]

Do you suppose that's because the toolbox has so many tools in it, and guys using modelers like to use all the tools available? It kinda dilutes the sound.

Case in point - I don't play out, but get some kickass tones from my gear. BUT...if I were in a band situation, I'd likely dump all the effects I use. Having someone else in the room would drown me out. I get that. Some people don't. Same with eq'ing - people go for the recorded tones they hear on a CD, but it isn't reality. Some guitar players don't get that you shouldn't necessarily sound "hi-fi", and full tone - hence so many guitarists bitching about "lack of low end" and such. You try to replicate that live, and you have a hot mess on your hands. The mix becomes more important.

In the right context - two guys playing and BOTH using modeling amps, you'd probably be alright, and I've heard that before with the first generation Flextones, and this band was AMAZING in a live setting. That said, the drummer, bassist, and keyboard guys didn't overplay, so they blended well.

Hey Chris, I think thats true to a point. In regards to the two guys both using modeling amps live... I have heard it.. I have done it. I was in a band where we both had Vetta II rigs. We sounded very thin live. Great tone.. just thin. Even through the PA. The guitars sounded like a pre-recorded version of a live guitar tone. Again.. great tone. Just no balls or presence or live oomph...
The 2 guys I heard with the Axe FX and the Eleven Rack system both sounded thin. These guys are pro players and they absolutely know what they are doing. They had outstanding tone that was very hard to hear. It was still digital sounding to my ears. There was another guy in the band with a Marshall DSL 2 x 12 combo. He was plugged directly into it with no effects. He totally crapped all over the other guitar players. They were all mic'd. They were all at similar volume levels. The difference was you could really hear the Marshall and it was hard to hear the modeling rigs. At first I thought the Axe FX was the best tone I ever heard live when the guy was warming up. Then.. when the band kicked into full gear he literally dissapeared into the mix. The sound guy told me he hates modeling amps because its hard to get them to cut through like a tube amp live. He told me they sound great through his headphone feed at the board but the tone just doesn't translate well through the PA direct. He mentioned they sound better with cabinet emulation turned off going through a regular guitar amp or a power amp and a speaker cabinet with a mic in front of it. That sort of defeats the purpose of having a modeling rig.
Its also really important for the drummer and bass player to tone it down when the guitar player or players are using modelign amp. The problem with that is its easier said than done.
I also agree that players who use modeling amps live tend to add way too many effects and they also play with way too much gain. I was guilty of that for sure.
Tube amps are just so much easier to deal with live. Most of the sound guys around here hate modeling amps. They like to stick a mic in front of a cabinet.

[jgcable]

I think a big part of the problem is that most players do the majority of practice at home alone, so they dial in a something that sounds good to them in their house. Using this same tone in a live setting is a recipe for terrible tone. Not only are there Fletcher-Munson issues at play simply because of the typical volume difference between home and live playing, but also what sounds good alone doesn't always sound good with a band through a PA system.

The more complicated a rig is, the more potential for the less knowledgeable to screw things up. I think this is one reason why tube amps often sound better live. Less knobs equals less to mess up. In the right hands, a modeler can sound really good, but a lot of people simply don't have the patience and skill to properly dial them in, so they end up sounding like crap more often.

absolutely bro.

[Shawn Lutz]

I think a big part of the problem is that most players do the majority of practice at home alone, so they dial in a something that sounds good to them in their house. Using this same tone in a live setting is a recipe for terrible tone. Not only are there Fletcher-Munson issues at play simply because of the typical volume difference between home and live playing, but also what sounds good alone doesn't always sound good with a band through a PA system.

The more complicated a rig is, the more potential for the less knowledgeable to screw things up. I think this is one reason why tube amps often sound better live. Less knobs equals less to mess up. In the right hands, a modeler can sound really good, but a lot of people simply don't have the patience and skill to properly dial them in, so they end up sounding like crap more often.

Also agree. Big difference in moderate volume levels alone to loud with bass, drums and vocals in a venue you're not going to keep the same EQ and gain settings. Heck you have to change on the fly going from an empty club at sound check to a packed club.

[xenophobe]

I think a big part of the problem is that most players do the majority of practice at home alone, so they dial in a something that sounds good to them in their house. Using this same tone in a live setting is a recipe for terrible tone. Not only are there Fletcher-Munson issues at play simply because of the typical volume difference between home and live playing, but also what sounds good alone doesn't always sound good with a band through a PA system.

Yep. I mentioned this several times. As well as the comparison of boutique tube amps that cost many times more than most modeling amps. Hey, your Uberschall sounds way better than that Vetta. Yeah, I wonder why.

[roodyrocker]

One thing about the Axe Fx live is if you are going to use a bunch of effects I would think this would be a great way to do it. Most people who run a tube amp live in local bands end up having pedal level mismatch issues, hum, noise, feedback, etc... That may be why they plug directly into a dry amp live. You end up having to examine eveything from the pedals themselves to the connecting cables, power supply, etc... With the Axe Fx OTOH its all built in the same box and get none of those issues. And for the soundman, the Axe Fx is easy to deal with. Just hand him your XLR cable from the Axe Fx directly to FOH. No other instruments to bleed through live mics. The Axe Fx can be sucessfully run live without being drowned out by the second guitar player who is playing through a "real" amp. I'm in an 80's hard rock band and have done it before in exactly this type of set up. I was not lost in the mix!