Say you can't afford an AXE FX, then what?

[jgcable]

I think most modeling amps sound pretty poor live with one exception, the Axe Fx. But since he said the Axe Fx is not an option due to cost then a tube amp with an attenuator is the way to go. It depends on how much is budgeted for an attenuator and some sound way better than others. I went on an attenuator spree a while back. tried out a bunch of stuff from the Ho Attenuator (now sold as the Ultimate Attenuator) to the Faustine Phantom. I found out that not only does the attenuator matter but also what amp its being used on. For example, my Metro amp (a Plexi clone) sounds fine with a THD Hot Plate but the same Hot Plate sapped some tone from my Randy Rhoads Marshall. The Faustine Phantom was king of the hill when it came to attenuators but they are no longer in business and made few of them. They are very expensive if you find one used. Alternatives would be the Aracom or the Alex. The reason I suggest the Alex is its smaller in size and cheaper than others. It works great on my RR head. When I saw Paul Gibert live with Racer X a couple years ago he was using the THD Hot Plate with his Marshall RR stack. If you like that tone you can find a used Hot Plate for $200-250 used.

I think the main reason people have problems with modeling amps live is they dial in too much gain and way too many effects. I also think the number 1 worst thing you could ever do live is have 2 different sounds for your rhythm and solo tones unless you are going for something unusual. You need to boost your rhythm channel around 6db and maybe add some midrange, presence and a little delay or something but I have heard too many players have one amp for rhthym and another completely different amp for leads. It sounds horrible for that split second when they switch channels.

[jgcable]

I think maybe I should start holding clinics on how to use a modeling amp correctly live. I admit that they are getting more and more popular live. I was shocked to see 5 bands in one day with all the guitar players using modeling amps live. Actually, there was another band with a guitar player who had a reissue 1959 Plexi. I was using my trusty Single Rectifier. The guy with the plexi was a very poor player and even though his amp sounded great, it still sounded really bad. No amp on the planet can fix your playing for you live.. especially a Plexi!
My Rectifier is very forgiving. The guys with the modeling amps.. everything from Line 6 to Digidesign to Vox etc.. all had the same things in common. Way too much effects.... way too much gain.. improper levels between patches.. way too much channel switching... way too many sounds. I also notice that on every modeling amp I have ever heard live.. including a few Axe FX rigs the notes don't pop out and bloom like a traditional tube amp. Even if the player has a louder patch for his solo's with say around 6db of boost, the notes still don't jump out and rip your face off like a tube amp. They are politically correct notes.

[rjohnstone]

I use my GT-8 live, but I only have 2 main patches I use and another that is strictly for clean. I'm mainly a rhythm guitar player, channel switching in a song has never been an issue for me.
I run through two Carvin SX-300 2x12 combos that color the tone nicely. Yeah, they're solid state amps, but they perform perfectly. I finally found "my sound" a few years ago with this combo and it's consistent for every song, even covers.
After 20 years of playing with all kinds of different gear, I actually love what I've put together. Probably change my mind in a few years, but this is a great setup for me right now.

I hear you about the effects with modelers. Keep it simple and buried in the background.
I've seen good guitar players get lost in a pool of reverb, chorus and delay hell.

[Hellbat]

The only effects I use on my 11 rack when I play with the band is a little bit of early reflection reverb, but it's dialed way back. The auditorium/room will add it's own reverb to the sound so you don't need to drape it in layers. I can switch in either a dirt pedal (depending on amp model or guitar I go with a tubescreamer, Xotic RC Booster, or ProCo Rat.) or EQ in for solo boost.

I can see all the effects being available to be a fake out to guys who go, "Well, it can do simultaneous ducking delay, compression, EQ, Boost, reverb, flange, and chorus. So I'm going to use them all. On EVERY patch!"

I spend hours in my room dailing that stuff in. And then when I play with the band, I turn it all off and emulate "Miced up isolated cranked tube amp pushed with pedal when necessary."

[javert]

You can hear people use too many effects regardless of what amp they use. It probably has more to do with whether they have a preset setup (which usually the ones using modelers have). It's kind of difficult to switch a handful of effects at once with pedals, but it is no problem with something like a G-major.

I'm fairly minimalistic with effects myself. Only a touch of chorus for clean arpeggios, a bit of reverb for rhythms with a bit of delay added for solos. I've become a bit more adventurous lately after I got a G-System. It's so easy to use some specially set up effects for even short parts with it.

[j2379]

don't know what kind of amp you have or if will even make a big enough difference, but having a half power mod isnt all that expensive. I had my old Randall RGT100 mod'd w a 1/2 power, while 50 watts wasn't that much lower in volume it was enough to be able to use the sweet spot, master around 7 with out being silly loud....at full power the master was around 4 when playing live.

[roodyrocker]

I use effects live whether through an Axe Fx or a row of pedals. But I don't use them all the time or all at once, rather to embelish certain things. Even on a pedalboard I can switch multiple pedals on/off. I use either a GigRig switcher or a Carl Martin Octaswitch. Those let me switch with one button to activate multiple pedals as if I was using a G Major rack unit. The trick is setting up all these pedals to play nice with each other and the amp and not create extra noise or mis-matched levels. These are easier to do in a rack unit that has everything built in.
Sometimes dialing back the gain helps. Like jgcable said, many play with way too much gain and the notes get lost. That is true of tube amps as well btw. With less gain all of a sudden you cut through better.
The 1/2 power switch may help but a 50w amp can still be pretty loud. I've gigged with my Hot Cat 30 and 30R amps which are 30w and still had to turn those down!

[horns666]

Tom Scholz "Power Soak". They actually melt..giving you gooey tone!

[jgcable]

Tom Scholz "Power Soak". They actually melt..giving you gooey tone!

I used to use mine to make really good grilled cheese sandwiches to go along with the crappy muffled tone of my amp. We used to call it the Power Joke!

[Shawn Lutz]

try the clear plexiglass baffles in front of the cab to keep the audience's ears from bleeding you still mic the cab and crank the shit out of the amp

Also for a modeller checkout the Eleven Rack...I head some really good clips of them ans they are lot cheaper than the AxeFX and cheaper than the Kemper

[Shawn Lutz]

too much gain and too much effects also fucks up good loud amp tone too

[jgcable]

try the clear plexiglass baffles in front of the cab to keep the audience's ears from bleeding you still mic the cab and crank the shit out of the amp

Also for a modeller checkout the Eleven Rack...I head some really good clips of them ans they are lot cheaper than the AxeFX and cheaper than the Kemper

I recently heard the Eleven rack system. The guy was powering it through a Frayette VHT going through the effects return. He had a VHT 4 x 12 cab and a PRS Dragon. He was controlling it with a Control One midi foot controller. The guy is a great player. His live tone was less than stellar. His tone duplicated EXACTLY the actual guitar tones of the cover songs they were playing but it sounded processed and fake and more like a recorded version of what a guitar amp sounds like. The other guitar player in the band had a Marshall JCM2000 2 x 12 combo sitting on a milk crate. He had a wah plugged into it and his guitar. Thats it. His tone destroyed the modeling rig.

[jgcable]

too much gain and too much effects also fucks up good loud amp tone too

Thats right Shawn and the problem most players have with modeling rigs live is its just too easy to dial in a tone of gain and too many effects.
With a tube amp you have to buy all that stuff after the fact!

[Hellbat]

The 11R is pretty complicated with regards to outputs and can easily be made to sound like shit by someone that doesn't know what they are doing. Ideally it should run through the board using the balanced outs and use the front amp out through an amp/cab for monitoring only.

If you run through the amp and cab and then are micing the cab, you are micing signal that has been processed with simulated mic and cab and then micing it and then re-amplifying it again out into the room through the PA. It's like watching a 3rd generation VHS copy. It's not going to measure up to a DVD...

[horns666]

I HATE 80's guitar tones soaked in delay and reverbs. Ahhhhhhh as soon as I hear that I'm like Fuck you!!!

Those tones didn't age well. I'd much rather have early Mick Mars' tone. Gimme somethin' to punch somethin.