JCM800 head + which pedal(s) for 80's Thrash?

[lefty]

Pigtronix Fat Drive if you're planning on using it with the 800 supplying some/most of the crunch.
If you're using the 800 completely clean, a Wampler Pinnacle...

[bombtek]

Boss HM-1 or -2

[Chad]

I'm pretty sure Godflesh runs an HM-2 or HM-1 into a JCM800. Sounds great!

[Newc]

So, I had about 2 hours to futz with the M13.

Running into the High input of the head, with the Gain on 5 and MV on 2, it's balls-loud (M13 bypassed). Kinda crunchy if you bash the strings, but cleans up when you roll the guitar vol down to about 7. Nice.

A little background/review of the M13 first:
The M13 can be set up in just about every way imaginable; you can run 4 pedals at once, and they can be anything, even 4 of the same model or type. They are arranged internally so that "Channel" 1 feeds into "Channel" 2, 2 into 3, and 3 into 4. However, like I said, you can put Chorus on 1 and OD on 2 if you want.

It's also got 3 pedal options per "Channel", so you can have 12 possible pedals in a given layout (called "Scenes"), and 12 "Scenes" each with 12 different (or identical) pedals.
Or you can set up the same pedal on all 3 spaces with 3 different settings in a Channel.

Only issue I have is that there's no numbers in the display for any of the Dist/OD/Boost pedals, so exact settings are kinda hard to gauge.
If I were sitting here with a "real version" of a modeled pedal (i.e. Chandler TubeDriver) and set its Drive to the "8" line of the knob, I'd have to guess at where 80% was in the LCD bar display of the M13.
The only knob with detents is the Model/Type select. All the others are smooth-turning, which means once you start tweaking EQ or Delay or really most any settings, especially the ones that do have numbers (Delay, EQ), it's really easy to jump from -1 to +1 when you're trying for 0.

It can interface with an Expression pedal through 2 dedicated Expression Pedal inputs (luckily one came with my Line6 AM-4 a few years ago, so I had one to use with it), and while the affected parameters are preset, you can adjust each pedal's reaction to the Expression control easily - and you can end up adjusting all enabled pedals at once, which can be a pain when it's tweaking your Drive level, EQ parameters, and working a Wah at the same time.

It's definitely as easy to operate as real pedals - you pick your pedal, and the knobs that have an effect are indicated on-screen. If it ain't on the screen, it won't have any effect.

Each pedal has a colored LED indicating what type of effect it controls, - Yellow(ish) for Dist/OD (and that includes Comp and EQ and Volume pedal), Green for Delays (and only delays), Orange for Reverbs (and only Reverbs), Purple for Filter effects (Pitch-related stuff), Blue for Modulation (Chorus, Phaser, Flanger, Panner, Tremolo, etc).

When the pedals are Engaged, the LED lights up brightly. When the pedal is Off, the light is dim, and still in the corresponding color.

To set up the Expression pedal, you push it down then up to see what it changes in a given enabled pedal, decide what parameter(s) you want it to affect or not, and set the parameter to where you want it in both Up and Down positions just by turning the associated knob. Don't want it to mess with your Distortion while the Wah is engaged? Set your Distortion to the same settings in both positions.

However, if you do find you want the pedal to act as a Gain boost + mid or Level shift (for rhythm/solo tones) for your Distortion, as well as not make changes when you engaged the Wah, then you'd have to set up another identical Distortion pedal and set your Expression pedal settings in that one.

That's where it starts to get a bit convoluted, plus you're eating up 2 pedal spaces with the same Distortion pedal, but in a live situation it's really not feasible to switch from a dead-on Looks That Kill tone to a dead-on Master of Puppets tone unless you plan to swap out the kick and snare, not to mention have a vocalist who can go from Vince Neil to James Hetfield.

Still, you'd have the same issue with a rack unit and a single expression pedal. The ART X-15 (with its dual treadles) would be the only one I know of that wouldn't give you that problem.

But, since the M13 can run 2 expression pedals, it's not a bad idea to have 2 of them.

However, you can't have 2 pedals in a Channel active at once, which means if you have 1)Comp, 2)Dist/OD, 3)Chorus, and 4) Wah, there's no room for the Noise Gate or Volume pedal. While you can have those as pedals in one Channel, you can't have the Noise Gate in Channel 4 and the Wah in Channel 4 active at the same time.

As I'm typing this, I'm building a pedal chain in my head to compensate for that (i.e. "not running Chorus and Wah at the same time, so I can put the Chorus on Pedal A of Channel 3 and Noise Gate on Pedal B of Channel 3, and then have the Noise Gate on Pedal B of Channel 4 with the Wah on Pedal A of Channel 4 so that when I'm using the Chorus I've still got Noise Gate...")

Now imagne that in a live setting while thinking about the changes for the song and "where did I put that other Noise Gate?" at the same time.
Given the fact that the Volume pedal LED is the same color as the OD/Dist LED, if you fuck up and stick another OD/Dist in Chan 4 with your Wah and Volume pedal (it can happen), you're going to get a nasty surprise if you hit the wrong one.
It's a volatile game of Concentration. Or Operation:The Wacky Doctor's Game. Step on that other OD by accident. Go ahead, I dare ya.

Gonna take massive planning to set up live patches. I'd suggest setting up any unused pedals in a given Channel for redundancy (i.e. 2 Volume pedals), just to help with the tap-dancing misfires.

For all that, I can see the benefits of having a "real" pedalboard over the M13. Your choices may be limited, but there are those "minor details" like a Noise Gate that are pretty much self-solving, a Volume pedal that works without having to turn it on or off, and a Wah that's always ready.
Obviously you can chain those to the M13, which is what I intend to do at least with the Volume pedal.

----------End of Review---------

thread continues in the next post

[Newc]

Continuing...

As I said, I ran into the High Sensitivity Input so I could use the head's Gain with the M13. Mostly this was to see how well the M13 works to slam the front end like a real pedal.

The head's EQ knobs were all set to 5.

Since there are no number indicators for any of the OD/Dist pedals, all settings are approximate.

I loaded up a Tube Drive pedal (Chandler TubeDriver model) set for 80-90% Drive, 50% Bass and Mid, and maybe 30-40% Treble, maybe 50% on the Output.
This is just like the head alone with the Gain on 10 (max), but with a touch more "oomph".
Rolling back the guitar's volume to about 7 would be good for AC/DC rhythms, then roll the knob up for solos. Punchy, beefy, and lots of mids.

Maxing the Drive and cutting the Mids and Treble on the pedal gets it closer to Point Of Entry or British Steel.

Next I set up a Classic Distortion (Rat2 model) set for 60% Drive, 50% Bass, 50% Filter, less than 5% Treble, and maybe 20-30% Output.
That's another good setting, similar to the TubeDriver setting, and comparable to what I was getting with my Rat2 pedal (though the Filter setting on the real pedal was at 60%, Output on 40%, and there's no Treble).
This has a bit more grind than the TubeDriver. Still in vintage 80s Priest/Maiden territory, though.


Next I loaded up the Heavy Dist pedal (BOSS MT-2 model), set for maybe 40-50% Drive, 50% Bass, 0 Mid, 5-10% Treble, 80% Output.
This is the Thrash tone I'd use. Much more grind than the other 2, so you get a little more crunch than beef on palm mutes.
Playing along to Ride The Lightning, it's very close on Creeping Death, Lightning, Escape, and Trapped Under Ice.
(I mentioned once before that For Whom The Bell Tolls seems a couple of cents sharp for some reason. I don't know if it was ripped that way by Windows or if I got a bum CD, but the M13 has a built-in Tuner, and my guitar was in tune, and it was in tune with everything except Bell Tolls).

Rolling back the guitar's volume to about 7 for rhythms, then up for the solos, it's very close. Then again, I'm definitely suffering some hearing loss at this point, so there's that


There's a few boost and fuzz models I haven't tried yet, but I'm doubting those will get me Thrash tones.

Also I haven't yet tried just the EQ boosting/tone-shaping like with the GE7. Gonna let my ears rest a bit.

[Cygnus X1]

All of this will mean nothing in a band setting though.

[jgcable]

All of this will mean nothing in a band setting though.

Exactly.

[Newc]

I don't see why not. Granted, I'm not going to use 3 different distortions in a live Metal band. And while I'm not seeing (hearing) the M13's models faithfully recreate the Rat2 as far as knob-for-knob, I'm getting good, useable tones from it through a real amp, using it to push the amp's Gain like you can with a "real" pedal. It responds well to volume knob adjustments, just like a "real" pedal, even the cheapass import knobs (granted it's better with the CTS pots of the KV2T).

[roodyrocker]

This M13 seems overly complex for what you're trying to do. Shouldn't need 3 stacked pedals with that JCM 800 to get a nice heavy tone from it. These amps are pretty minimalist in layout and features but big on raw sound. Find one good, simple pedal to hit the front end of it with and I bet your live tone cuts through much better. When you add multiple distortions you're also adding unnecessary noise so now you need a noise gate too. I'm not against complex setups by any means. Its just that I don't think most Marshalls need all that or you start to get away from their basic tone. The other option is to have that JCM 800 modded. There are plenty of guys that do fantastic mods to them and turn them into fire breathing amps!

[Newc]

No, no, I wasn't suggesting running multiple drives at once. I was just comparing the various models individually.

[horns666]

Matt said "knob-for-knob"..that's old school bible shit!!!

[VitaminG]

[Newc]

Eye for an eye
Tooth for a tooth
Knob for a knob

I'm ok with that


While the M13 does do more than I'd need it to for simple Thrash, there's always room for Priest and Maiden. The harmony function would come in handy for leads where it just sounds wrong to drop both rhythms out.
Then there's the chorus for the intro to Sanitarium.

I'd rather have too many options than not enough, and lugging around extra separate pedals would just look like nerdism. I'll already have a separate volume pedal and either a Dunlop wah or the expression pedal, and 3's enough.

[Newc]

Finally got my MetalZone. GREAT pedal! The mid-sweep knob really makes it versatile.

Plays well with the volume and tone controls of the guitar as well. I could see me using just this pedal in an all-out Thrash setting.

As I work with these pedals and the head, I'm coming to the realization that my Carvin cab/speakers prefer the mids and highs, if not outright over-emphasizing them.

I really need to clear some floor space for the 4x12 in the closet and see how that sounds, because the Carvin is just killing my ears

[Cygnus X1]

What Carvin is it?
I missed that part.