The official don't buy this amp if you play at home list...

[markD]

I kind of sit where rudy does - use what sounds best to you. personally, I have tube amps that are 5 watts, 12 watts, 13 watts, 15 watts, 20 watts, 30 watts, 35 watts, 40 watts, 60 watts, 100 watts, and 120 watts. all of them suit my needs for home, recording, and gigging. I have a POD 2.0 that I will record with if I am in a hurry, but I am not a fan of modeling amps. to me, once you add the power amp and the speaker something gets lost.

volume is a non-issue for me. I practice/record LOUD. not obscenely loud, but most of my amps are moving air when they are being used. I realize that is not everyone's situation. for instance my fender vibro-champ is often sitting at 7 on the volume control. is that the same as 7 on a plexi? no, not even close. but it is still "loud". most of my amps are turned to about 4-5 on the master for home use. my wife never complains - she actually encourages it so my tone will be right when I go onstage.

[MetalDaze]

Here are my two cents...

You'll do better at low volumes with amps that have a master volume and/or amps that get most of their tone from the preamp.

I have no problems running my Engl Fireball 100 at reasonably low volumes. I'm not talking low as in "my parents can't hear me in the next room bedroom volume" but more like my neighbors won't complain and my wife doesn't come banging on the door volume. Same thing was true with my VHT Ultra Lead.

Unfortunately, I had to sell my Deliverance 120 because the volume knob seemed to have two settings...off and LOUD. Don't get me wrong...it was awesomely sounding loud, but really wasn't usable at home. I bought a Rivera Rockcrusher as an attenuator, but it sucked out all of the dynamics that made the amp so cool.

[PowerTube]

The Marshall that you say sounded so good and what you may be gravitating back towards now.....sounds like you parted ways with it at some point. If so, why?

When I bought my Vetta rig a few years ago, I held on to the Marshall for a couple of years and then finally sold it. Basically, I loved the sound, but.....

1. Getting my sound on it caused a lot of hiss. The JCM 800 wasn't very high-gain, so to get that warm, liquid lead tone, it required pedals. The Boss Metal Zone provided gain on the front end and the GE-7 provided clarity. These pedals are total magic together, but the GE-7 caused a lot of hiss.

2. The clean channel sucked and there was nothing I could do about it.

From what I'm hearing, the JVM solves both problems. And even if I get a bit of hiss by having to use pedals (unlikely), who cares? It's more than worth it to me.

My love of the POD 2.0 and Flextone led to getting the Vetta. It's not a total "dog," but it doesn't quite live up to the ideal I had in mind.

[Larz]

The Marshall that you say sounded so good and what you may be gravitating back towards now.....sounds like you parted ways with it at some point. If so, why?

[PowerTube]

But that's the thing I don't understand... I owned a few Vetta's over the years. If you can get pretty much an EXACT cranked tube tone out of a Vetta (which I know you can), what is the need for a 100w tube amp at home? That's the whole point of modeling. Cranked tube tone at low levels suitable for playing at home.
At low home levels... the Vetta or the Flextone 2 or 3 or many other modeling amps or combo's.....are far superior in achieving that cranked tube amp tone. Why beat your head against the wall trying to tame a tube amp when you have the perfect amp already for what you need?
With that said.. I have several amps at home. Tubes, solid state, hybrids, modelers, half stacks, combos, etc..... I prefer to play modeling amps at home. To my ears they sound just as good as the real thing at low volumes. I don't use them live because I feel they just don't cut through or "feel" right really loud or even in the PA system.

All good points, but here's the thing. It has never been about volume or power to me. In fact, if I'm going to be miked across a PA, then 10 watts is more than enough. That's also more than enough for home use. I never play loudly at home, anyway. But.... and like Rosie O'Donnell, it's a huge BUT(T), nothing sounds to my ears like a 4x12, and nothing sounds like a Marshall but a Marshall. I run two 4x12's with my Vetta. I had them on opposite sides of the room facing each other, but I recently put them next to each other on the same wall. I've saved presets that sound really good to me on the Vetta, but they don't sound organic. Nothing I've heard yet on the Vetta screams, "Tubes!" like a Marshall head. And believe it or not, I prefer a 100-watt to a 50-watt. For example, most people say that the JCM 800 2210 (100-watt) has more depth of tone and headroom than the 2205 (50-watt), and I agree.

It's really hard to describe what I'm talking about in words, but my JCM 800, when played at low volumes with a distortion pedal and an EQ, had a stinging, edge-of-feedback type of tone. It was warm, forgiving, organic, and very clear. I can get warm, forgiving, and clear from the Vetta, but it won't give me "stinging" and "organic."

That probably made zero sense at all, but it's the best way I can describe it. I also think that Marshall cabs have a distinct character. I'm not saying that other cabs aren't as good by any means, but I think the Marshalls have their own thing going.

So what I'm after is a sound, not a volume level.

[jgcable]

Yep. I hear people say things like, "I'll get the 50-watt amp instead of the 100-watt because it'll be quieter." Um.....no.... It'll be quieter by maybe 3-5% at best. In my opinion, even a 15-watt tube amp is too loud to play at home -IF- your tone depends on cranking the amp. In my case, it doesn't and it never has. As a matter of fact, I've never liked the cranked tone of ANY map I've owned. Not the JCM 800, not the X100B, not the Vetta (obviously). To me, most amps actually go stiff and harsh sounding when really cranked.

But I love the sound of a 100-watt Marshall head through a 4x12 cab at low volume, using pedals if necessary. Some may call me crazy and they won't be the first but for me, it's all about tone, depth, warmth, sustain, etc.... My old Flextone II combo sounds great, but not across a 4x12 (I briefly had a Flextone II HD head and it just didn't have the same "magic" across a 4x12). I never play at high volumes at home, but I want a 100-watt Marshall for the sound, not the volume.

But that's the thing I don't understand... I owned a few Vetta's over the years. If you can get pretty much an EXACT cranked tube tone out of a Vetta (which I know you can), what is the need for a 100w tube amp at home? That's the whole point of modeling. Cranked tube tone at low levels suitable for playing at home.
At low home levels... the Vetta or the Flextone 2 or 3 or many other modeling amps or combo's.....are far superior in achieving that cranked tube amp tone. Why beat your head against the wall trying to tame a tube amp when you have the perfect amp already for what you need?
With that said.. I have several amps at home. Tubes, solid state, hybrids, modelers, half stacks, combos, etc..... I prefer to play modeling amps at home. To my ears they sound just as good as the real thing at low volumes. I don't use them live because I feel they just don't cut through or "feel" right really loud or even in the PA system.

[jgcable]

Yep. I hear people say things like, "I'll get the 50-watt amp instead of the 100-watt because it'll be quieter." Um.....no.... It'll be quieter by maybe 3-5% at best. In my opinion, even a 15-watt tube amp is too loud to play at home -IF- your tone depends on cranking the amp. In my case, it doesn't and it never has. As a matter of fact, I've never liked the cranked tone of ANY map I've owned. Not the JCM 800, not the X100B, not the Vetta (obviously). To me, most amps actually go stiff and harsh sounding when really cranked.

But I love the sound of a 100-watt Marshall head through a 4x12 cab at low volume, using pedals if necessary. Some may call me crazy and they won't be the first but for me, it's all about tone, depth, warmth, sustain, etc.... My old Flextone II combo sounds great, but not across a 4x12 (I briefly had a Flextone II HD head and it just didn't have the same "magic" across a 4x12). I never play at high volumes at home, but I want a 100-watt Marshall for the sound, not the volume.

80% of the time live I am using a Peavey Triple XXX 60w combo. 1 x 12" speaker. Channel volume about 3. Master volume about 3. I mic it through our PA system which is about 5000 watts and is rarely over 2 (overall levels). It sounds incredible. Its plenty loud for my band which most consider is LOUD live.
I don't even bring my 50w Mesa Single Rectifier half stack anymore because I just don't need that much volume live. I throw a Boss GT-8 in the loop set on manual mode for volume pedal and effects. I also have the EQ set at +5 which to my ears.. sounds exactly like what the BBE Sonic Stomp sounds like.
I am running 4 cable method so that I can put the wah in the GT-8 and the acoustic simulator out in front (virtually). Its a great gig rig.

[jgcable]

So... I think I can sum this up. There are 2 schools of thought here. There are those that believe you can, and should play what sounds good to YOU no matter what the wattage or the volume, and then there is the, John is always right, and is only trying to save everyone from themselves! (Thank you by the way)
Now your job is to decide where you fall.

That sounds about right to me. I would say that probably 99% of the JCF members need my vast knowledge of everything and anything that has to do with great and I mean FRIGGING GREAT guitar tone both live, home and in the studio. Some say its my increased brain capacity. I say its a gift that I have been born with.
Come with me if you want to live.

[PowerTube]

The thing many here don't realize is that even for live gigging a cranked tube power amp is still too loud. So the reality is you can't turn it up for home use and you can't turn it up for live gigs. That's why you are using a volume pedal or, some use attenuators. The switches that cut wattage on many amps also change the tone. My Mesa Mark V has that feature but the 45w setting isn't the same as the 90w just at lower volume. You end up having to compromise just a bit tone wise no matter how you go about reducing the volume of a high power tube amp. I personally either turn it down at the power amp or use an Attenuator. Btw, this is one feature something like an Axe Fx is good at. It can give you cranked tube amp tone at just about any volume.

Yep. I hear people say things like, "I'll get the 50-watt amp instead of the 100-watt because it'll be quieter." Um.....no.... It'll be quieter by maybe 3-5% at best. In my opinion, even a 15-watt tube amp is too loud to play at home -IF- your tone depends on cranking the amp. In my case, it doesn't and it never has. As a matter of fact, I've never liked the cranked tone of ANY amp I've owned. Not the JCM 800, not the X100B, not the Vetta (obviously). To me, most amps actually go stiff and harsh sounding when really cranked.

But I love the sound of a 100-watt Marshall head through a 4x12 cab at low volume, using pedals if necessary. Some may call me crazy and they won't be the first but for me, it's all about tone, depth, warmth, sustain, etc.... My old Flextone II combo sounds great, but not across a 4x12 (I briefly had a Flextone II HD head and it just didn't have the same "magic" across a 4x12). I never play at high volumes at home, but I want a 100-watt Marshall for the sound, not the volume.

[ZL1hawk]

Would one of these be better?

[veemagic]

So... I think I can sum this up. There are 2 schools of thought here. There are those that believe you can, and should play what sounds good to YOU no matter what the wattage or the volume, and then there is the, John is always right, and is only trying to save everyone from themselves! (Thank you by the way)
Now your job is to decide where you fall.

[roodyrocker]

I gotta agree and disagree all at the same time.
Ok power amps especially Tube amps sound their best at higher volumes because of Tube Break up. Most high power tube amps don't sound as good at lower volumes.
BUT it doesn't mean you shouldn't use your main amp for home practice. Thats what the volume control is made for and what a volume pedal is made for. I practice all the time using my volume pedal and get excellent tones very low. But when I crank it up ,it just get s better and better.

Another factor here is that many of todays amps have wattage switches so you can limit their power and still drive a small set of tubes and get great tone.

The thing many here don't realize is that even for live gigging a cranked tube power amp is still too loud. So the reality is you can't turn it up for home use and you can't turn it up for live gigs. That's why you are using a volume pedal or, some use attenuators. The switches that cut wattage on many amps also change the tone. My Mesa Mark V has that feature but the 45w setting isn't the same as the 90w just at lower volume. You end up having to compromise just a bit tone wise no matter how you go about reducing the volume of a high power tube amp. I personally either turn it down at the power amp or use an Attenuator. Btw, this is one feature something like an Axe Fx is good at. It can give you cranked tube amp tone at just about any volume.

[jgcable]

Fascinating thread John! You always know how to stir things up. Just when things were getting quiet around here.

Sometimes I feel its my duty as a JCF bro to get the juices flowing and get some good dialog going. Believe it or not.. this type of stuff is very helpful to the players out there.

[mantis]

I gotta agree and disagree all at the same time.
Ok power amps especially Tube amps sound their best at higher volumes because of Tube Break up. Most high power tube amps don't sound as good at lower volumes.
BUT it doesn't mean you shouldn't use your main amp for home practice. Thats what the volume control is made for and what a volume pedal is made for. I practice all the time using my volume pedal and get excellent tones very low. But when I crank it up ,it just get s better and better.

Another factor here is that many of todays amps have wattage switches so you can limit their power and still drive a small set of tubes and get great tone.

[mantis]

I gotta agree and disagree all at the same time.
Ok power amps especially Tube amps sound their best at higher volumes because of Tube Break up. Most high power tube amps don't sound as good at lower volumes.
BUT it doesn't mean you shouldn't use your main amp for home practice. Thats what the volume control is made for and what a volume pedal is made for. I practice all the time using my volume pedal and get excellent tones very low. But when I crank it up ,it just get s better and better.

Another factor here is that many of todays amps have wattage switches so you can limit their power and still drive a small set of tubes and get great tone.