The Big Live Amp mic'd test!!!!

[jgcable]

Curious to know what my fellow JCF'rs think...

Modeling vs full tube vs Solid State dinky combo amps live WHEN you are using the PA system to amplify your sound and the volume coming out of your stage amp either doesn't exist or is just loud enough for you to hear.

I have been comparing the following rigs.

Peavey 5150 half stack
Marshall DSL100H half stack
Peavey Triple X 1 x 12 combo
Ampeg Reverberocket 1/2 stack
Vetta II 2 x 12 combo
Fender G-Dec 3 15w combo (has an 8" speaker in it) Its a tiny sucker
Boss GT-8 directly into the PA system.

Here is what I found when running these amps through my 5000 watt PA system and my 1000 watt monitor system live.

When standing directly in front of these amps live with the band the bigger the amp, the more speakers it has.. the better I can hear it and the better it sounds. Duh... makes perfect sense. Its not really necessary to hear the amp though because 90% of my stage volume comes from the monitor system.

Now... step to the left or the right or move 10' or more away from the stage and I can barely hear any of them.

The big question is.. which one sounds better when you are in the crowd in different areas of the club and CAN YOU HEAR THE TUBE GOODNESS WHEN YOU ARE IN THE CROWD AND LISTENING TO THE PA AMPLIFIED GUITAR SOUND?

Of course... some of these amps sound better than others for specific tones. For instance... the 5150 is great for palm muted chunkarama. The Marshall is great for soaring leads. The Ampeg kills for clean and medium gain. The Vetta just does everything good.

With that said.. I can't tell the difference between tubes, solid state or modeling. I can't tell what the size of the guitar amp speaker is, if its open or closed back and how many of them there are.

For instance... the Fender G-Dec 3 mic'd through the PA sounded fantastic. It was impossible to tell it was a tiny practice amp when mic'd correctly and EQ'd correctly through the PA.
The amp that sounds the best through the PA when I walked around the club was the Vetta. I ran an XLR cable direct from the Vetta to the board and used the SM57 on Axis AIR II direct output on the Vetta.

Almost everybody agrees that the Vetta gets lost in the mix when playing live and when comparing it to a real tube amp it almost disappears.
As far as I am concerned.... that's only when you are ONLY using the amp live and not amplifying it through a PA system.

Now.. it certainly feels better for me playing through a 1/2 stack all tube high gain rig but it really doesn't sound any better when you are in the crowd and you are only listening to the band through the PA system.

Discuss?

[roodyrocker]

Lots of stuff to consider but a good discussion. To most of the audience, they probably won't notice tubes or not nor can they tell big vs small amps. I just noticed that some amps that sound good by themselves sometimes are not so good when other instruments are playing along with it. Its not so much that it doesn't cut through but more like there is no note separation. So sounds sort if jumbled. Other amps have great note definition. Another thing to consider is when you mic an amp you pick up all kinds of extraneous noise from drums, other guitars, bass and yes even vocals bleeding through there. Here a modeler excels or you can use something line the Palmer DI boxes which eliminate everything else since you run one XLR cable direct to the PA. As far as moving away from the monitors, yes you can lose your sound. They tend to work best directly aimed at you. When possible I use In Ear Monitors. That allows you to go anywhere and you get the same consistent sound and mix no matter what. That said, I hardly move anywhere else on stage LOL.
I just bought a Two Notes Torpedo Live which should be delivered any day now. It has various cabs, mics, and mic positions in it to run direct from a fully cranked tube head and places a load on the amp. I'm hoping I can run the amp all out yet still be at low PA and stage volume if I want Oh, it also has power amp sim so that means I could run a JMP1 or MP1 or TriAxis preamp into this then to the PA without lugging big heavy cabs or power amps. We'll see how it sounds when I get to mess with it. I have high hopes for it!

[Hellbat]

Looking forward to your thoughts on the torpedo!

[javert]

Roody, it's a great piece of gear. I've been using a Two Notes Torpedo Live for a year now. Great (and cheap) way to experiment with different cabs and mics for your amp as well.

[AdRock]

There are so many variables in a live situation that the audience can't tell what's being used the majority of the time. I know one guy that has an amazing tone, big, fat, and just awesome. It sounds like crap when put into the mix with the rest of the band. I know another guy who has a really thin tone, but it sounds great when put in the band mix.

A good example is Pantera. Dimebag had a fairly thin tone all by himself. But most of the time Rex played the exact same thing as Dime witch resulted in a really brutal, tight sound that almost seemed like the biggest thickest guitar tone. And you can hear everything because it sits in the eq spectrum in the right spots. Too put it as simple as possible, the guitar is a little bright, the vocals are the mids, and the bass is the lows, then the drums cover a little of all of it. That fills out the eq spectrum and creates a full band sound even if the instruments sound a little odd by themselves.

It sometimes helps to have the guitar less bass heavy to get everything to fit. If the guitar has the wrong mid frequencies boosted it may sound great by itself but sound jumbled once theres a singer with a voice tone in those same or close frequencies singing along.

So whether you're using modeling, tubes, solid state, whatever, the audience can usually only tell if it's bad or good and thats it.

[PowerTube]

Most of the audience members in a live setting don't know the difference between a tube and a tulip. They recognize what sounds good to them when they hear it, but they have no idea what went into that sound. They also couldn't care any more about your EL34 output section than they care about your expensive vintage guitar.

However.... I'm a firm believer that we guitarists play better when it sounds right to US. I know that I'm very much a slave to my sound; if it doesn't sound great to me, my playing will suffer and THAT does indeed transfer to the audience. I think this nursery poem is very fitting here:

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Remember that one? If you use Jazz III picks, and you somehow can't find any, and all the local store has are the traditional teardrop shaped picks, guess what? Your technique suffers. Because of that, your overall playing suffers. Because of that, the whole vibe of the band suffers. Because of that, people are thinking, "Man, the band really sucks tonight!" All because of a stupid pick.

So honestly, I think that about 85% of it is in our heads. But that's a very important factor in the overall picture.

[roodyrocker]

I think I'll sort of rephrase one thing. I would say 99% of the audience knows nothing about the gear used, nor care. However at every show there is always at least one guitar player in the audience that comes up to me between sets to talk gear such as "nice Jacksons!" Or "Is that the Marshall Randy Rhoads amp?" Etc... So us guitar players play to ourselves plus 1 usually

[jgcable]

I spent all weekend flip flopping between 3 rigs.

Peavey 5150 head through a 5150 4 x 12 cab. Digital delay and LBP-1 boost pedal in the loop, wah out in front.

Marshall DSL100H head through a Soldano 4 x 12 cab Digital delay and LBP-1 boost pedal in the loop, wah out in front.

Line 6 Vetta II 2 x 12 combo with longboard.

I had the Marshall and the Peavey mic'd through the PA

I had the Line 6 running direct using the Vetta AIR II direct out using the the SM57 mic sim.

I was playing soft, I was playing ear bleeding loud.

The amp that is the most fun to play for me is the Vetta because it has the perfect amount of gain and saturation at any volume level. Also... a very slick feature of the Vetta direct out is it is not affected by the volume of the amp itself. It has its own direct level out. Its nice to be able to turn up the amp to get a louder stage volume and not have it effect the overall mix in the PA. Its also extremely easy to set up. 1 cord to the longboard and my guitar wireless is sitting on top of the amp. I tried it in several rooms and it sounds the same everywhere. Its literally a 5 minute set up guaranteed to sound the same every time.
What I don't like about it is how it reacts to the guitar volume knob. It gets sterile as the guitar volume is turned down. Part of it could be the noise gate. I need to look into that. What I love is having all the onboard effects at my feet.

The Marshall/Soldano rig overall has the best sound. Its full, rich and extremely clear. As long as the gain isn't too high it has a very nice open sound to it. Its a total quality sound. It is also very reactive to the guitar volume knob which I use ALOT.

The Peavey 5150 rig is the heaviest and most aggressive sounding. Its a monster sounding rig. The clean is good enough for me. Its a little too bottom heavy and modern sounding for my band but jeez it makes me want to play heavy!

[jgcable]

I think I'll sort of rephrase one thing. I would say 99% of the audience knows nothing about the gear used, nor care. However at every show there is always at least one guitar player in the audience that comes up to me between sets to talk gear such as "nice Jacksons!" Or "Is that the Marshall Randy Rhoads amp?" Etc... So us guitar players play to ourselves plus 1 usually

Believe it or not... that is a major concern of mine. Lots of guitar players from other bands come to see my band to see me in particular. I am one of those players who doesn't sit in the mix.. I like to jump out of it. I also play ALOT of solo's and I love to call out other guitar players. I feel I am spreading the gospel of what a real soloist should sound like.. not somebody who just talks the talk.
Because of this... I am concerned about my "rig appearance". Sounds stupid. Being 53 today... it shouldn't matter but it still does.
Even if the Line 6 Vetta sounded as good as one of my other rigs .. Marshall, Mesa, 5150 etc... I am tempted to not use it live only because Line 6 is associated with budget guitar amps. None of the pro's use Line 6 live. After all.. why use the simulated modeled version of an amp when you can use the real thing right?
I use the Peavey 5150 models on my Vetta. I own a 5150. That sounds dumb. I use the Marshall models on my Vetta. I own a few Marshalls. I use Soldano, Marshall and Mesa cab simulators on the Vetta. I own all of those cabinets. Why not play the real thing?

[chrisolson]

Sounds like it's time for the plywood backline, John! Hide that Vetta stage left...

[Larz]

Its also amazing sometimes how two chicks just talking near you can sound way louder than anything coming from the stage or PA

[jgcable]

Its also amazing sometimes how two chicks just talking near you can sound way louder than anything coming from the stage or PA

Sometimes they don't even have to talk.

[CowboyFromHell]

Why not play the real thing?

Because unless you've got someone loading in your shit for you, it's A LOT of work carrying multiple "stacks" to get different sounds? To me, if you're worried about impressions, it seems you'd have more people scratching their heads if you use the smaller amp. Don't get me wrong. I love a stack but also see the practicality of modeling amps.

[jgcable]

Because unless you've got someone loading in your shit for you, it's A LOT of work carrying multiple "stacks" to get different sounds? To me, if you're worried about impressions, it seems you'd have more people scratching their heads if you use the smaller amp. Don't get me wrong. I love a stack but also see the practicality of modeling amps.

I would never bring multiple rigs to a show and I really don't need more than a few sounds and also.. I see your point.

[Outlander]

The construction of the venue has a big impact on tone as well. All I know is that if I'm not happy with my tone coming from my amps on stage I am forced to play differently! It's still usually good and gets the same response from the crowd...it's just a little more work to get to the "magic"...so I continue to haul and use my dual set-up unless it's going to be a blues night then I'll use the deluxe.