General Modler Thread. Fractal, Line 6, Kemper

[Tetsuo]

So true about YouTube and the apps they have out there. You can get real good real quick without any excuse. Especially if you have talent to start with. It is insane how much is out there and what is awesome about it you can have 1000's of teachers at your fingertips and learn different techniques to help build your own. Personally I have gotten better playing to instructional videos. You can get a cheap tablet an interface and decent speakers and be on your way to great playing it is awesome.

I'm still an old dog though.

I think the axe8 is really fits my needs to be honest. I can still 4cm, etc... But primarily I am looking for a simple effects unit. If I can't get tone out of my amps I am doing something wrong. Dime got plenty of tone out of what most considered complete shite.

[pianoguyy]

Umm, I don't think you can become real good real quick. I think you can mimic things quickly, but that is different than actually understanding what you are doing and why.

Which is why teachers only want beginners to come once a week, and don't want students trying to do the next page until it is assigned.


And then, of course, you have human interaction. Someone who sits there telling you what you are doing wrong.
I mean, have you watched the American Idol auditions? There are a lot of people who think they are good because no one has ever told them to shut up.

[Brandenburg]

Umm, I don't think you can become real good real quick. I think you can mimic things quickly, but that is different than actually understanding what you are doing and why.

Which is why teachers only want beginners to come once a week, and don't want students trying to do the next page until it is assigned.


And then, of course, you have human interaction. Someone who sits there telling you what you are doing wrong.
I mean, have you watched the American Idol auditions? There are a lot of people who think they are good because no one has ever told them to shut up.

LMAO

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try to hold back the laughter...LOL

i play through modellers.. well sorta. I use a software solution when its late at night.. PC/Guitar Rig 4 with some headphones. This used to be my primary practice amp but something was missing.. my conclusion.. dynamics that playing through a quality head gives me was absent.. some of this is admittedly my interface too as it is getting a tad old..

not sure if this counts as a modeller.. but ATM.. Im playing through an 1991 SGX2000 through the front end of a Randall RH 200/clean channel and a 412..nothing sounds comparable to a quality head/412 IMO.. not as fan of the distortions of the RH 200 but the clean channel is very acceptable

There are several patches I really dig in the sgx and with a bit of tweaking, are pretty much "my sound".. ive heard people say that the effects sound too 80's.. WELL.. since I play metal from the 80's mainly, the fact that is sounds 80's is a plus, not a negative.. . Yea.. some sounds are dated compared to the new modellers but still other sounds have held up well over the years..

as for tone.. im NOT the most particular about my tone but i do know what I like. besides, I feel that as much as 50% of a players tone comes from the fingers/style..

[Tetsuo]

Umm, I don't think you can become real good real quick. I think you can mimic things quickly, but that is different than actually understanding what you are doing and why.

Which is why teachers only want beginners to come once a week, and don't want students trying to do the next page until it is assigned.


And then, of course, you have human interaction. Someone who sits there telling you what you are doing wrong.
I mean, have you watched the American Idol auditions? There are a lot of people who think they are good because no one has ever told them to shut up.

That is true. Real quick is perception indeed. I can watch a new sweep technique video though and have it in my Arsenal to practice. In our day though we were stuck with what we could basically pickup. Muscle Memory and knowledge of the instrument and how the fretboard relates will always take time and practice. The access to knowledge to learn it quicker is vastly improved. All that being said no one will just play a note like BB King by watching a video so I fully understand what you are saying.

[pianoguyy]

Im playing through an 1991 SGX2000 through the front end of a Randall RH 200/clean channel and a 412..

I was using two SGE Mach II units. Right up until I bought my HD500.
Well, to be honest, I used a Rocktron for my main distortions and the ARTs for other fx. But, yeah man, they were killer little units.


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And just to toss this out there.
I use a modeler. And I sometimes feel a little bit silly being on stage doing the 'rock star moves' when there is little to no volume on stage or headphones. I mean, sometimes my landings are louder than music.

BUT I am not being paid to pleasure myself. My money comes entertaining the masses.
They don't mind the sound of a modeler because it is the same sound they heard before. And they dig the 'sex face' I make when I make that squealy sound.

[jgcable]

There is a drawback using modeling live unless you have your own PA and monitoring system that you set up and you control. I play out live ALOT. Every type and size of club and bar. What I notice is with a traditional tube amp where the sound person can throw a 57 in front of it I generally have no problems. The problems occur when I am using a modeling rig and I need the floor monitors to hear my guitar. The sound people that I have run across don't seem to have a grip on that and I end up straining to hear my guitar on stage. The crowd hears it fine. I don't. I have had instances where it worked perfect but more times than not.. it doesn't and I end up getting buried by the rest of the band on stage. It sucks when you can't hear your guitar live.

[Tetsuo]

Anyone have any experience with the Atomic Amplifire?

[Tetsuo]

Well I didn't really intend to do this but I got an awesome trade offer on an Axe FX2 board expression pedals and 2 atomic monitors. They are the old reactors but they were thrown in. I was going to wait and see on the 8 but this was an great deal for me (mark v:25 and 1-12 cab) and I couldn't pass up the chance.

[MountainDog]

The Kemper is awesome and there a a ton of useable models you can download for free from the rig exchange. They are fully tweakable and sound amazing. I play mine through a Mesa 4 x 12 with V30s and it rips. The Marshall rigs sound like Marshall, ENGL sounds like ENGL and the 5150, 6505s all sound great and just like the actual amps. Don't let the tone snobs deter you. The profiler will allow you to own all the top amps that none of us has the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost to own. Light, portable, pushes cabs or direct to the house, super versatile, what's not to like....

I agree to all the above, play my powered Kemper thru a Marshall 4x12 cab with Celestion G1230H 55hz speakers. Sounds awesome. Constantly get compliments from people in the audience about my guitar tones. I'm the rhythm guitar player and our lead guitar player is awesome, but people constantly remark on my guitar tone vs. his, and he has Marshalls and H&K heads.

[mr426]

I'm one of the rare ones these days. I've never played a modeling amp I liked long term. I still use my 80s mesa and 4x12s live. I use a board with some pedals on it too. I DO NOT trust sound guys to mix me In the monitors right. Plus it never sounds right through their speakers. Usually I turn up loud enough to hear across the stage and its cool to me. I can hear my sound and feel the rest of the band without worrying alot about the sound guy. The bottom line is I just prefer tube amps to a clone. No disrespect to anyone to likes them, but they are not really for me

[Tetsuo]

I'm one of the rare ones these days. I've never played a modeling amp I liked long term. I still use my 80s mesa and 4x12s live. I use a board with some pedals on it too. I DO NOT trust sound guys to mix me In the monitors right. Plus it never sounds right through their speakers. Usually I turn up loud enough to hear across the stage and its cool to me. I can hear my sound and feel the rest of the band without worrying alot about the sound guy. The bottom line is I just prefer tube amps to a clone. No disrespect to anyone to likes them, but they are not really for me

I don't think they have to be. They are just really another tool. Any modeler up to this point still isn't all the way there. They also all require more tweaking than just a plug and play amp. For me the ability to have a bunch of usable tones with the fractal is intriguing. I have 4 projects I am involved with all of which are pretty distinct. 3 require being able to record some pretty different sounds, one with really complex sounds and effects layout. It works for me. For now. I still have tube amps. I also agree with the sound guy but the mic'd experience can be frustrating too. I am actually going to be running a decent stage setup too. I a, prepared though for a quiet stage. So for me right now it does indeed work.

[pianoguyy]

I've never played a modeling amp I liked
I still use my 80s mesa
I DO NOT trust sound guys to mix me
Usually I turn up loud enough to hear across the stage

I have 4 projects I am involved with all of which are pretty distinct.

As touched on by Tetsuo, I don't think that guys who play in one band need modelers for sound. I mean, back in the 80's and 90's (whether I said it in this post, or another post is unclear) when I originally wanted to go ampless for guitar like I do keyboards, it was never about making different sounds - as we had that 'one' sound that we needed. It was about not carrying gear. Every band I played in back then, we had 'one' sound, I just didn't want to carry gear.
Today, I am a little older, a little wiser - I am not limited to one band at a time. I am not even limited to just rock music today. Thankfully the technology has caught up to where I need it to be - 60 amps, 17 cabs, hundreds of pedals. All of my sounds for every project I could ever need. In a 2'x1' floorboard.
I mean, my overnight bag takes up more room than my entire 'rig'.



But, I am probably more concerned about the rest of your post - regardless of the modeling conversation.
Not trusting your sound guy is a big issue. Your band is your business. Why are you putting your reputation in the hands of someone you don't trust? People aren't going to come see you, hear a bad mix and say "the band is real good but that sound guy ruined them." No, they are going to say "that has horrible. remember their name so that we don't waste our time again"

And being able to hear your own amp from across the room ---
not only does that interfere with the house mix, but its rather unrealistic unless you intend on playing in the corner of your local pub for the rest of your life.
I mean, the first time I stepped onto a football stadium sized stage, there was no way I was hearing myself outside of 'my area'. Hell, I could barely hear the drums, lol.



Lastly, I just want to make sure that you understand that there is a difference between amp modelers and modeling amps.
Amp modeling is the technology. And the better amp modelers (not all are created equal), allow every aspect to be changed. If it can be changed in a 'real' amp, it can be changed in the 'fake' amps.
Modeling amps, however, are amps that use the technology. They are usually limited in what features they let you change. I've seen some that let you pick '65 Marshall', but don't let you adjust eq or drive - you just take what they offer.
In fact, some of them are using "models" instead of giving your things like eq and drive. Instead of having a tone knob with 1-10, they have 'fender clean' where the 1 would be and 'marshall metal' where the 10 would be.
You can hardly compare that to the things that we are talking about.

[jgcable]

As touched on by Tetsuo, I don't think that guys who play in one band need modelers for sound. I mean, back in the 80's and 90's (whether I said it in this post, or another post is unclear) when I originally wanted to go ampless for guitar like I do keyboards, it was never about making different sounds - as we had that 'one' sound that we needed. It was about not carrying gear. Every band I played in back then, we had 'one' sound, I just didn't want to carry gear.
Today, I am a little older, a little wiser - I am not limited to one band at a time. I am not even limited to just rock music today. Thankfully the technology has caught up to where I need it to be - 60 amps, 17 cabs, hundreds of pedals. All of my sounds for every project I could ever need. In a 2'x1' floorboard.
I mean, my overnight bag takes up more room than my entire 'rig'.



But, I am probably more concerned about the rest of your post - regardless of the modeling conversation.
Not trusting your sound guy is a big issue. Your band is your business. Why are you putting your reputation in the hands of someone you don't trust? People aren't going to come see you, hear a bad mix and say "the band is real good but that sound guy ruined them." No, they are going to say "that has horrible. remember their name so that we don't waste our time again"

And being able to hear your own amp from across the room ---
not only does that interfere with the house mix, but its rather unrealistic unless you intend on playing in the corner of your local pub for the rest of your life.
I mean, the first time I stepped onto a football stadium sized stage, there was no way I was hearing myself outside of 'my area'. Hell, I could barely hear the drums, lol.



Lastly, I just want to make sure that you understand that there is a difference between amp modelers and modeling amps.
Amp modeling is the technology. And the better amp modelers (not all are created equal), allow every aspect to be changed. If it can be changed in a 'real' amp, it can be changed in the 'fake' amps.
Modeling amps, however, are amps that use the technology. They are usually limited in what features they let you change. I've seen some that let you pick '65 Marshall', but don't let you adjust eq or drive - you just take what they offer.
In fact, some of them are using "models" instead of giving your things like eq and drive. Instead of having a tone knob with 1-10, they have 'fender clean' where the 1 would be and 'marshall metal' where the 10 would be.
You can hardly compare that to the things that we are talking about.

I agree with most of what you are saying. I will say that your statement:: Not trusting your sound guy is a big issue. Your band is your business. Why are you putting your reputation in the hands of someone you don't trust?

isn't realistic in my world. There is no "your sound guy". What there is 99% of the time is the band supplies and maintains the PA system and rarely if ever has a sound person. Its usually somebody in the band. If a club does have a sound person their biggest deficiency is monitoring. Especially guitars through the monitor. I have found that sound people are concerned about vocals through the monitor. They are also concerned about overall stage volume. If I cranked my amp loud enough to hear it over the drums and the rest of the band I would be entirely too loud for most of the clubs I play at. I rely on the monitors. I am in a 2 guitar band with a keyboard player. What I require live in the monitors is my guitar, my vocals and the other guitar player. He needs the exact same thing. This way... we can hear ourselves and each other anywhere on the stage. I can always hear the drums and the bass player. Sometimes we have cross stage monitors which take care of everything but most of the places we play at are too small for cross stage monitors. We rely on 4 wedge monitors. 3 out in front... one back near the drummer.
I have found with modeling amps live (my Bogner all tube powered Spidervalve for instance) that its imperative that I have a hot monitor mix. If I don't.. I can't hear it onstage. I don't have that problem with my Marshalls or Rivera or my 6505+ or my AT100. I can hear those amps pretty easily. I do think the modeling amp sounds better through the PA system and its perfect for my 80's Arena Rock metal band.

[PowerTube]

I have two Flextone II combos and a POD 2.3. I love the Modern Hi-Gain model in them. Unfortunately, Line 6 basically destroyed this sound in subsequent amps, even though they claimed to carry it over. It was never the same. I unloaded my Vetta rig earlier this year for this very reason.

Ironically, my Carvin X100B has by far the most awesome clean sound I've ever played across. To me, it sounds better than a JC-120, Fender Twin, or anything else I've ever tried. The Vetta, surprisingly, wasn't even close no matter how I tweaked it.

[mr426]

I wish sound guys at every club knew what they were doing, then id have no problem. Hahaa. Just like any scenario, you have bad, mostly kinda ok, and rarely great. I just played southern California this weekend, the first place did not have a soundguy. The bouncer fumbled with a weird pa.. Then in Hollywood we had great sound. Both times I turned up to hear across the stage and I had no trouble. If we had our own sound people, we would not have this problem, but that's life. We deal with it and keep going