Maybe I suck?...... tone snobery discussion inside...

[jgcable]

So... blah blah blah. I have been playing in rock and metal bands since the late 70's. I am regarded as a guitar hero to some. Auditioned for Ozzy, had songs on the radio.. who cares. Anyway....
Here is what I do know... for sure...
Less gain sounds better live and loud when you are in a metal band.
Less gain is not as fun to play live and loud when you are in a metal band.
Less gain makes it hard to sound like the record when you are the lead guitar player in an 80's hair metal band.

I have done probably 20 gigs recently with my 80's arena rock metal band.
When am I having the most fun playing solo's? When I am using an amp with a ton of gain and a ton of effects.
When do I get the most compliments on my playing? When I am using an amp with a ton of gain and a ton of effects.
For instance.. when we are doing songs by EUROPE. Kee Marcello had a very clean lead tone but it was fully saturated with gain, reverb, delay, sometimes wah and sometimes chorus. You simply can't mimic that tone just plugging your guitar into an amp. No way ... no how. It also makes it REALLY difficult to nail the solo's when you don't have the delay and reverb and the massive gain to back you up.
Same thing with George Lynch, Richie Sambora, Snake Sabo, Zakk Wylde, Warren Demartini.... etc... you get the drift.
I have been desperately trying to simplify my rig and use less gain and less effects to make the band sound cleaner but its just not working out.
I need SCHMUTZ... and lots of it.
Here is another example. I go to Guitar Center and plug into a high gain Blackstar or Orange combo. I rip some solo's and some cool rhythm stuff. Not a lot of reaction from the kiddies there who are killing our ear drums with dribble. Anyway....
I get out of the high gain tube combo's and I jump into an El Cheapo Fender Mustang 3 or 2 or whatever which is a modeling amp. I start ripping some solo's. I immediately feel like I am playing better AND sounding better. All of a sudden there is a small crowd hovering around me wondering what amp I am using because it sounds so killer. Soon after... worship comments start coming and people start asking me if I give guitar lessons or they want to know how long it took me to get this good.
So... IMHO.... that means I suck. How many of you.... suck?

[rjohnstone]

I feel ya brother...
I know in my mind I'm playing the same, but when I dress up my sound with effects and a metric ton of gain, it's sounds like I'm a better player.
Haters gonna hate and all that shit.

[markD]

I don't know man. We have talked about this a little bit before. I don't do the cover thing and I am not a shredder, so I don't use a shit ton of gain or much delay. I barely use modulation effects, and I have even pretty much abandoned my wah. I sound more fluid, my techniques is better and people compliment my playing and tone on a regular basis. Now that I am doing Alternative Country, I am using a tube reverb unit for most of my distortion - think Duane Eddy-style Rockabilly tone. The notes sustain but in a different way.


While I am getting ready to TRY and change over to using a Helix with an FRFR system, my current tube amp rig is a '65 Bassman head + Cab, a Fender reverb, an MXR DynaComp and a Gretsch Duo Jet with Filtertron pickups. Totally different style of playing, but still rippin' Skynyrd style. It works without all the extra stuff. I have to work a little harder, but it makes the music more authentic.

So, do I suck???

[jgcable]

I don't know man. We have talked about this a little bit before. I don't do the cover thing and I am not a shredder, so I don't use a shit ton of gain or much delay. I barely use modulation effects, and I have even pretty much abandoned my wah. I sound more fluid, my techniques is better and people compliment my playing and tone on a regular basis. Now that I am doing Alternative Country, I am using a tube reverb unit for most of my distortion - think Duane Eddy-style Rockabilly tone. The notes sustain but in a different way.


While I am getting ready to TRY and change over to using a Helix with an FRFR system, my current tube amp rig is a '65 Bassman head + Cab, a Fender reverb, an MXR DynaComp and a Gretsch Duo Jet with Filtertron pickups. Totally different style of playing, but still rippin' Skynyrd style. It works without all the extra stuff. I have to work a little harder, but it makes the music more authentic.

So, do I suck???

I think the answer is no. If you could play 80's Arena metal solo's with minimal gain and effects you got one up on me.

[Nimitz]

[Jackson8090s]

You both suck so good! Look at this guy ^

[Tetsuo]

80"s metal needs the effects or it won't sound right imho. It would be as awful as playing an 80's clean part without chorus!!! The gain issue can also be if you are playing a single guitar versus dual.

[catzodellamarina]

No matter what we cover, songs sound better to us, and our fans, with high gain, FX, and a Ratt sound/Crue attitude. Example: we play "Beer" by ReelBigFish. Sounds like we are struggling if we try to play it clean and dry. Once I dirty up the gain, add a little delay, the 3 other guys get inspired too. We all start playing better. We deliver the song better, fans feed off our excitement & confidence, they drink more beer. Bar is happy. Everyone wins.

[jgcable]

No matter what we cover, songs sound better to us, and our fans, with high gain, FX, and a Ratt sound/Crue attitude. Example: we play "Beer" by ReelBigFish. Sounds like we are struggling if we try to play it clean and dry. Once I dirty up the gain, add a little delay, the 3 other guys get inspired too. We all start playing better. We deliver the song better, fans feed off our excitement & confidence, they drink more beer. Bar is happy. Everyone wins.

Yep... I notice the same thing too. When I am playing with as little gain as possible and with little to no effects my band mates can actually see it in my face that I am not having fun. Bottom line is this for me... I need to mimic the bands I am covering and I will do it with any amp that works.... tubes, modeling, preamps, effects.. whatever. I was jamming on my 1999 Digitech 2120 Artist last night using one of the stock Satriani Artist patches and I'll tell you what... that stuff was sounding NICE. That's the sound I want live. I think its time for an Axe FX or one of those Eleven Rack things or a Kemper duehicky. Until then... I am going to figure out how to use the 2120 or my Vetta Combo live. Those are the amps that NAIL the 80's arena rock metal tone. I just need to figure out how to get them to cut through a crazy loud mix live. I actually prefer the 2120 over the Vetta and that's saying a lot because the Vetta sounds REALLY good. I can program that sucker as if I worked for Line 6 and helped develop it. I have been using one at home since they first came out!

[BenoA]

Great thread jgcable! I think it varies from guitar player.

I don't have your experience but I do gig like 2 to 3 times a year with a cover band. We do not try to be "note for note" and I don't try to have the exact same guitar sound except if it is some kind of part of the tune.

Anyway, in my case, I noticed that over the years, I do have lowered the amount of gain in my sound. I'm not saying that I'm playing clean now... lol... But I won't put everything to ten as when I was doing 30 years ago.

Also for me, I've never been able to use delay live... It's like it gets buried somewhere in the mix. I'm happy with a good OD pedal (for some added boost), a good amp and a reverb.

But, I think to each his own, it all depends on your style or your personal comfort when you play.

My 2 canadian cents...

[xenophobe]

I think you're confused.... there are only two gain settings. 1) bedroom / impress your friend level. 2) actual gigging gain setting.

A lot of people have trouble using the former while you're doing the latter, where most of the problems come from. Too much gain sounds like shit mic'd, and then amplified through mains, produces too much white noise and other instruments have to fight for their frequencies and masks actual tone. Too little gain of course starts sounding a bit hollow or thin and twangy and doesn't give you a nice sound canvas or presence.

The struggle is finding the best gain setting for the type of music you're playing, for how many other instruments are in the band and what kind of venue you're actually playing.

With the epic metal, thrash and death metal bands I've been in, as a bassist, I usually gave up riding lower frequencies just because I couldn't cut through chugga chugga, so i would surf the midrange. I did this before it became popular and now I hear bassists doing this a lot.

As a guitarist in thrash and death metal bands, your required tone heavily depends on if there is another guitarist or not. If you're set too bass heavy and with too much gain, harmonies will not eq right, you won't have good dueling sound and you'll end up fighting each other with volume wars which just makes things sound even more like shit.

You really need a good sound tech to help you work on studio and mic'd level settings. That's the difference between a garage band and a band that sounds pro, IMO.

[RacerX]

El Cheapo Fender Mustang 3 or 2 or whatever which is a modeling amp. I start ripping some solo's. I immediately feel like I am playing better AND sounding better. All of a sudden there is a small crowd hovering around me wondering what amp I am using because it sounds so killer. Soon after... worship comments start coming and people start asking me if I give guitar lessons or they want to know how long it took me to get this good.

I would like to see video of this

[jgcable]

I would like to see video of this

Check Youtube. I go by the alias Guthrie Govan. That's actually me in a wig.

[jgcable]

I think you're confused.... there are only two gain settings. 1) bedroom / impress your friend level. 2) actual gigging gain setting.

A lot of people have trouble using the former while you're doing the latter, where most of the problems come from. Too much gain sounds like shit mic'd, and then amplified through mains, produces too much white noise and other instruments have to fight for their frequencies and masks actual tone. Too little gain of course starts sounding a bit hollow or thin and twangy and doesn't give you a nice sound canvas or presence.

The struggle is finding the best gain setting for the type of music you're playing, for how many other instruments are in the band and what kind of venue you're actually playing.

With the epic metal, thrash and death metal bands I've been in, as a bassist, I usually gave up riding lower frequencies just because I couldn't cut through chugga chugga, so i would surf the midrange. I did this before it became popular and now I hear bassists doing this a lot.

As a guitarist in thrash and death metal bands, your required tone heavily depends on if there is another guitarist or not. If you're set too bass heavy and with too much gain, harmonies will not eq right, you won't have good dueling sound and you'll end up fighting each other with volume wars which just makes things sound even more like shit.

You really need a good sound tech to help you work on studio and mic'd level settings. That's the difference between a garage band and a band that sounds pro, IMO.

My band is a 6pc. 2 lead guitars, bass, drums, keyboard and lead singer. The other guitar player in my band uses a Marshall 9200 and a Marshall JMP1 through a 2 x 12 cab. He uses NO effects. The only solo's he plays are solo's that require nothing but chops. Mainly the AC/DC solo's. Stuff like that. I play all the shredder high gain much effects stuff. The problem that we have is these guys spend so much time on setting up the lighting, pyrotechnics and the mains and they spend next to no time on the monitoring system. We have a 15,000 watt main system and a 8,000 watt monitor system. We can have any mix we want into any of the 4 stage monitors. Usually... that's were we fall apart. I always tell them what I need to hear in the front monitors.... my guitar, vocals and the other guitar player. The problem is there is never enough of my guitar in the monitors which forces me to turn my amp up so that I can hear it. Our drummer hits extremely hard.
I am trying to get a handle on it. You would think after all these years it would be cake... but... its not. We need a dedicated sound guy running the board but everytime we get one they flake out for one reason or another.

[Newc]

Turning up your amp to be heard more in the monitors also means there's more of yours in the mains. Run a sub-mixer on stage to feed your monitor and adjust it there, where you can separate your tone from the other guitarist's more easily with either the fader or EQ. It's more knobs for you to tweak, but unless the monitors and mains have the same mix, it should get you sorted out. If you've got an extra rack space with the 2101, a single-space line mixer might be enough, though you probably won't have EQ separation.

You could also look into in-ear monitors with a "more me" option.


The 2101 should be killing it live, however. I'm assuming you're running a 100w power amp with it? My 21 Legend used to get plenty loud, and our drummer had a kit that was a replica of Eric Carr's, so he was definitely loud. Running the Legend into the SS power section of a Fender RocPro1000 head and Carvin 2x12 gave me more volume than we needed. I used to set the Legend's front knobs so the Input Gain was about 9 o'clock and the Output knob about 3 o'clock, because it was much better for the distortions, but the Cleans were always clipping. I finally set the Input to 3 and the Output to about 1 o'clock, and used the Compressor in front of the Distortion as a boost and got the same saturation but much less hiss (like none). I had to change patches completely for cleans, though, because just kicking the Distortion off left me with the Compressor pushing too hard and clipping. Turning off both dropped me too low.