1 x 12 vs 2 x 12 vs 4 x 12 LIVE

[jgcable]

This only pertains to live players who mic their guitar amps through a PA where the sound engineer DEMANDS a moderate to low volume coming from your guitar speaker cab and you are getting the majority of your live volume through the monitors and the main PA speakers.


I have several cabs. 1 x 12, 2 x 12 and 4 x 12. Open back, semi open and closed. The speakers I run in ALL of my cabs are Celestion T75's.
I play in a live loud 80's metal band and a live and loud 80's rock band.


What I have found that when mic'ing any of my cabs with a standard Shure SM57 (I only use 1 mic) the 1 x 12 semi open almost always sounds the best through the monitors and the mains.
I have a constant struggle with my bandmates who always want me to bring the 1/2 stack.
The only noticeable difference I hear onstage is I can hear the 4 x 12 cab onstage and I can barely hear the 1 x 12.
What I notice is if the cab ISN'T mic'd obviously the 4 x 12 sounds best followed by the 2 x 12 followed by the 1 x 12.
The 1 x 12 sounds a little boxy but when you mic it, it sounds better than the 2 x 12 or the 4 x 12.

I went to see a national touring Van Halen tribute band about 8 months ago. They looked like Van Halen, they sounded exactly like Van Halen. Anyway.... my buddy knows the guitar player who is also in Rock of Ages on Broadway. He introduced me to him and we talked about gear of course. He was running a 1/2 stack 5150 for years until he decided to downsize for the ease of touring. He was using a 5150-III LBX lunchbox amp. Its a 15 watt amp head. He was running it through a Friedman 1 x 12 cab. He had some basic EVH pedals out front and in the loop and that was it. Obviously the cab was mic'd up with a standard SM57. He had one of the best live guitar tones I have heard.
Even the bass player had a tiny Mark Bass rig that was very small.
What he said is using a 1 x 12 cab with a 15 watt head allows him to turn the amp up and get almost full tube saturation. It also drives the single speaker really hard and when mic'd up it sounds the best.
What do you live players think?

[markD]

What he said is using a 1 x 12 cab with a 15 watt head allows him to turn the amp up and get almost full tube saturation. It also drives the single speaker really hard and when mic'd up it sounds the best.
What do you live players think?

Yes, I agree. Before switching to the Helix rack rig, I was using a head and a 1x12 semi-open back cab, usually mic'd with an SM57 (most clubs use one - sometimes you'll get a Sennheiser 409/609). My sound at the cab was full enough to "feel" right without beaming the front row. My sound in the wedges and side-fills was always VERY similar to what I'd have at the amp.

While I never used a lunchbox amp, I would run my Rivera on 15 watt output mode with the EL34 tubes. I would have just enough "extra" coming from the power section to make the rig feel like it has several pedals running to help boost drive/sustain.

Aside from going Helix, one of the BEST live choices I ever made was ditching the big cabs and wet/dry rigs. Head, 1x12 cab, 2-3 pedals and guitar were enough. We play loud too. Our last gig (end of February) was opening for Obituary. Before that we played with Graham Bonnet - great shows, good sized venues, killer systems. Aside from the "visual appeal" none of the big stuff really serves much of a real purpose. My opinion of course....

[jgcable]

Yes, I agree. Before switching to the Helix rack rig, I was using a head and a 1x12 semi-open back cab, usually mic'd with an SM57 (most clubs use one - sometimes you'll get a Sennheiser 409/609). My sound at the cab was full enough to "feel" right without beaming the front row. My sound in the wedges and side-fills was always VERY similar to what I'd have at the amp.

While I never used a lunchbox amp, I would run my Rivera on 15 watt output mode with the EL34 tubes. I would have just enough "extra" coming from the power section to make the rig feel like it has several pedals running to help boost drive/sustain.

Aside from going Helix, one of the BEST live choices I ever made was ditching the big cabs and wet/dry rigs. Head, 1x12 cab, 2-3 pedals and guitar were enough. We play loud too. Our last gig (end of February) was opening for Obituary. Before that we played with Graham Bonnet - great shows, good sized venues, killer systems. Aside from the "visual appeal" none of the big stuff really serves much of a real purpose. My opinion of course....

Our last gig was on Saturday. I used my Mesa Single Rectifier 1/2 stack with an SM57 stuck in front of one of the speakers. It sounded great. I had the amp master volume on 2. Maybe even 1.5.
Anyway... I also have a Orange Dark Terror running through a Framus semi open 1 x 12 isolation cab loaded with a Celestion T75. Live.. on the 15w mode I can turn the master volume on the amp up 3/4's of the way! Full tube saturation. The speaker is driving like a mother too. It sounds HUGE when its mic'd. You would think I was playing out of a full stack. The only way to get louder is to turn me up in the sound system. Once the Dark Terror gets more than 50% up on the volume it really doesn't get much louder. It just gets thicker and it allows me more control of my overall tone using just my guitars volume knob.
This is the rig I should be gigging with.

[markD]

Right on!!

[catzodellamarina]

I would have to agree with anyone who has had the opportunity to A/B setups time and time again and has played multiple venues.

I have no mic'd cab preference. I have run using my old Behringer G100? red box DI w/412 cab sim. In recent years I use my Sennheiser e609? mic that hangs in front of cab. When we play places with sound guys, they use 57's. None of it matters to me. What does matter and affect my playing & confidence is if I'm hearing myself on stage, sounding my best, then I play inspired. This setup is my head/rack fx & 1960a 4x12. I have played my 112 combo live and mic'd. It sounds fine but my presentation and playing seems to lack the balls like when I'm playing a 1/2 stack.

[jgcable]

I would have to agree with anyone who has had the opportunity to A/B setups time and time again and has played multiple venues.

I have no mic'd cab preference. I have run using my old Behringer G100? red box DI w/412 cab sim. In recent years I use my Sennheiser e609? mic that hangs in front of cab. When we play places with sound guys, they use 57's. None of it matters to me. What does matter and affect my playing & confidence is if I'm hearing myself on stage, sounding my best, then I play inspired. This setup is my head/rack fx & 1960a 4x12. I have played my 112 combo live and mic'd. It sounds fine but my presentation and playing seems to lack the balls like when I'm playing a 1/2 stack.

I get what you are saying 100% but.....
The last 3 shows I did all had great PA and monitor systems. Even though I had my Single Rectifier 1/2 stack directly 10' behind me it was so low volume wise I really couldn't hear it once the band was playing. I relied totally on the wedge monitors out in front. My guitar was in all three of them across the front of the stages. One of the shows had cross stage monitors. I like that set up the best.
The problem with bringing a 1 x 12 is when the soundman isn't doing his job. That's happened in the past and its a nightmare. I can't get loud enough and its almost like playing deaf.

[catzodellamarina]

I cannot say I have found too many soundguys that care about your tone. Volume, yes, but tone, no. They want to move their 57 in place quickly, get a sound check, and done with you. A good sound man, with good equipment, who cares about how you sound over how loud you are, is hard to find. If you could find a guy like that everywhere, then a 1x12 would be ideal to carry around . Our PA is small but efficient - Bose PAS with some powered QSC subs. My singer likes to hear himself more than me through the "sticks". Since it is designed to be a personal system, he turns me down at the PA.

[metalhobo]

an open back 1x12 is going to have the least amount of bass for any of the options you gave. shouldn't matter that much for lead guitar in a rock band though. this might actually be beneficial on stage (more perceived cut)

the biggest difference is that while the 1x12 and 4x12 are going to have the same acoustic power for a given amp power output (assuming the same impedance), when you put a mic in front of the 1x12 you get ALL the power, instead of 1/4 of it (as with a 4x12). So you can run the amp at lower levels but get the same level front-of-house through the PA/monitors. this translates to less interference between your cab's sound and the monitor sound, which is probably why it sounds better to you.

What he said is using a 1 x 12 cab with a 15 watt head allows him to turn the amp up and get almost full tube saturation. It also drives the single speaker really hard and when mic'd up it sounds the best.
What do you live players think?

The tube part is ideally untrue. Using a 4x12 doesn't magically "create" more acoustic power vs. a 1x12, and the ratio of electrical power to acoustic power is basically constant across the speaker's linear range for any given speaker, OR, most importantly, an equal-impedance network of identical speakers (e.g. 4x12 vs. 1x12). The real major effects involved in the difference in perception are speaker break-up (as he mentioned), and less interference between the cabinet's sound and the monitors or PA. If you actually are driving a 1x12 past its linear region, however, then there actually is a complex relationship between the speaker break up and tube saturation which could be perceivable, but for this to really make a difference you'd have the drive the speaker basically to the point of damage.

[jgcable]

an open back 1x12 is going to have the least amount of bass for any of the options you gave. shouldn't matter that much for lead guitar in a rock band though. this might actually be beneficial on stage (more perceived cut)

the biggest difference is that while the 1x12 and 4x12 are going to have the same acoustic power for a given amp power output (assuming the same impedance), when you put a mic in front of the 1x12 you get ALL the power, instead of 1/4 of it (as with a 4x12). So you can run the amp at lower levels but get the same level front-of-house through the PA/monitors. this translates to less interference between your cab's sound and the monitor sound, which is probably why it sounds better to you.



The tube part is ideally untrue. Using a 4x12 doesn't magically "create" more acoustic power vs. a 1x12, and the ratio of electrical power to acoustic power is basically constant across the speaker's linear range for any given speaker, OR, most importantly, an equal-impedance network of identical speakers (e.g. 4x12 vs. 1x12). The real major effects involved in the difference in perception are speaker break-up (as he mentioned), and less interference between the cabinet's sound and the monitors or PA. If you actually are driving a 1x12 past its linear region, however, then there actually is a complex relationship between the speaker break up and tube saturation which could be perceivable, but for this to really make a difference you'd have the drive the speaker basically to the point of damage.

I doubt I would damage a speaker. I am using a Orange Dark Terror set on the 7w mode and my speaker is a Celestion T75. I can turn the amp volume up 50% and its a perfect live mic'd volume for the sound guy. I agree... our sound guys generally don't give a rat about tone.. they only care about volume. The general concensus is they don't want loud guitar amps.

[jtr]

For decades I used a Marshall Plexi 100 stack, JMP 50( Head &4x12) or 2( added a 2x12 Combo) in stereo or A fuchs ODS100 & a 4x12 . Always got your to loud. Now I use 2 Fender Pro Juniors in Stereo 15 Watts each and 20 LB. Clean they sound like across between Vox/Fender over driven sound like a Marshall.The original Speaker are OK but the PRO Jr. sound Much better with a Alnico 10" like P10R ,Eminence Blue or Celestion Gold .

[jgcable]

Update.... I went back to my trusty Marshall 4 x 12 cabs. They just sound fuller live.. even at really low stage volume.

[skullfunkerry]

My live rig for my last band was Orange Dark Terror into a pair of Orange PPC112 cabs (1x12, closed back). Never had any issues with sound, clarity or volume - in fact, the first gig I did with the Dark Terror (with just one cab), I was asked to turn down because my stage volume was too loud

[catzodellamarina]

We have been making fine tuning adjustments to our PA sound. We run everything on our own and the board is an app w/Bluetooth to the mixer. You can save settings and next time you play the same place, load the setting. I have been playing lower volumes - 9:00. Now and then I feel like bringing in one of my 212 ADA slants but I still wheel out the 1960a. It just sounds better. On another note, I have a Weber beam blocker over the speaker I mic. I think I'm going to install Webers on the other 3. We played an outdoor show last weekend and we were on an elevated flatbed trailer. My cab was piercing at ear level if I turned up to 10:00 (where I could actually hear my cab outdoors).

[catzodellamarina]

Played live last night. Our band truck broke down so we had to squeeze in a minimalist setup into a couple small trucks. My live rig was my rack and one of my ADA 212's. The ADA has Weber Beam Blockers. I was not mic'd last night so I had to turn up a bit. We played in a pole barn and I was worried it would be really harsh, bright, echos. My sound was amazing and full. If it was not for the Webers, I probably would have killed people seated in the front. I was impressed how good the 212 sounded live. My previous experience was in the practice basement or my house. At those places, the ADA is just OK. Also played my 88' Jem 77FP for the first set, my Charvel CS Dweezil for the remainder of the night. Everything was perfect.

[xenophobe]

I've never had the chance to mic up my Dark Terror and 1x12, but it's by far the best tone I've ever had and it's likely due to power tube saturation like has been mentioned. In my last band, we only played shitty clubs mostly with crap PAs, so I considered my 4x12 kinda necessary especially when the in house monitors weren't up to powering past my drummer's cabinet for his trigger setup.