Fractal or EVH

[hippietim]

This is where we are. Our stage sound has cleaned up SOOOOOO much. The vocalist (who was really killer to begin with, is BETTER now) can be heard out front. The people at our shows are up front instead of hanging in the back of the room. The overall mix in the room is WAY cleaner. Even my bass player - who runs a Mark Bass rig - is running direct these days, and went from using an 8x10 to a 1x15. This volume is just enough to fill out the sound (the MB head has separate volume for the DI to give the FOH more signal if needed).


Funny enough, the ONLY mics we have on stage these days are from the drums and the 3 vocals.

I run a Helix Rack, direct, mono to the FOH. All I carry to a gig is my rack, an over-the-shoulder bag that holds my controller, wireless packs, and other gig necessities, and my EV-ZLX12P cab. Takes about 3 minutes to set-up since everything is prewired in the rack.

I'll NEVER do a traditional rig ever again. Every time we do a show with a band that feels the need to lug a 4x12 stack or larger, my point is proven - their sound is a muddy, swirling mess coming off the stage. You can never hear the vocals, and if there is more than one guitar player - forget telling who's doing what. It sucks.

I'm with you 100%. I've decided to sell pretty much all of my tube amps and traditional cabs. I had been running the Axe-FX Ultra and then the II direct since the Ultra came out. A few years back I was playing in a few bands using small tube rigs - Friedman Pink Taco, Suhr Badger, or a Two Rock Studio 22 into either a 1x12 Bogner or a 2x12 Boogie. Even with those little amps, unless we were on a bigger stage I still couldn't open those things up. I've been back on the Fractal stuff for quite some time now and I'm not going back to traditional rigs again - it's not worth it.

I saw GHOST a while back and both guitars and the bass are all Fractal direct players. Their tones were fantastic and the band mix was incredible. Shortly after that I went to a metal tribute show - Sabbath and AC/DC. They brought half stacks cranked up. The sound of the guitars was great. When nobody else was playing and it was just one guitar. The mix was uncontrollable because of those ridiculous volumess.

[Axewielder]

I maybe a little biased...lol

Sweet, Axe FX III! How is it? I'm an Axe FX II guy but haven't been to their forum in a while.

So amps are basically a mature 1940's technology. There's something to be said for that, with only incremental improvements and refinements since. Modelers have been around a while but nowhere near that long, and the current generation has little if any shared DNA with the 90's stuff. So it's the classic compromise between a proven design and one that's more bleeding edge. As Tim pointed out, players haven't learned how not to make stupid mistakes with modelers yet.

But it's not Pepsi/Coke issue in my opinion either. Maybe there's an Emperor's New Clothes issue going on here, and I'm mostly looking at this from the lens of the audience, but haven't like 80% of live hard rock bands always sounded like muddy dogshit? Am I the bad guy here? In my book, any technology that can help clean up that fucking mess is a good thing.

[horns666]

what about that Line 6 Helix. Jeff Loomis gave everything up for this...for now.

'Sup Dave, John, Tim..fellas.

I'm a dinosaur. I just want plug n' play. If I can't dial in a tone in 3 minutes....fuggums

EVH III....or Blackstar ( I'm a fan)

[hippietim]

Bill! What’s up brother?

The Helix is cool. I had one for a bit but I like the Fractal tones better.

As for fetting up and up and running in 3 minutes, you’re going to have to spend some initial time finding the or creating the presets you want in any unit. The Fractal stuff comes with great presets out of the box. The Helix had some good ones as well. Then there’s guys that sell presets for all of these units. Usually they’re not much money and some are really damn good.

Once you’ve got your presets, they’re easy as heck to use.

Youve also got to figure out how you’re going to amplify them. I use what is essentially a PA speaker from Atomic Amps called a CLR. It is loud as fuck. I can hang with a half stack no problem. Lots of choices. If you get serious about going this route, give me a call.

[horns666]

Bill! What’s up brother?

The Helix is cool. I had one for a bit but I like the Fractal tones better.

As for fetting up and up and running in 3 minutes, you’re going to have to spend some initial time finding the or creating the presets you want in any unit. The Fractal stuff comes with great presets out of the box. The Helix had some good ones as well. Then there’s guys that sell presets for all of these units. Usually they’re not much money and some are really damn good.

Once you’ve got your presets, they’re easy as heck to use.

Youve also got to figure out how you’re going to amplify them. I use what is essentially a PA speaker from Atomic Amps called a CLR. It is loud as fuck. I can hang with a half stack no problem. Lots of choices. If you get serious about going this route, give me a call.

Hey Tim , I will if I were to go that route. I know you and a couple others kept updated and did all the homework. I always hated homework, hence the only way my dad could ground me was take away my guitar.....that cruel fucker!!! Well, in the end I graduated with a D- GPA thingy.

I just dick around these days. learning how to slap just as good on guitar as I used to on bass...I can. So I'm happy.... for now.

Love,

Bill Z Bub

[pianoguyy]

you’re going to have to spend some initial time finding the or creating the presets you want in any unit.

Modelers, if you think of them in the same way you think of physical amps and effects...

Using my HD500 as an example -
Imagine that, the night before a big showcase, your house burned down and you lost all of your gear. The good folks at "guitars r us" were going to hook you up with gear for the show. They gave you a list of 120 amps (two each of 60 different amps). 34 cabs (two each of 17 different cabs). 16 mics (two each of 8 different mics). And they gave you 904 pedals (eight each of 113 different pedals).

And they said to you "you can choose up to 2 amps, 2 cabs, 2 mics, and 8 effects".
They also included an fx loop in case you grabbed some gear from a buddy that you wanted to add to the chain. And they provided enough wiring so that you can run things in stereo or mono, or even run a dual path.


You would be overwhelmed with choices.


Well, that is exactly what my modeler is.
35 years ago, I spent 8 years building the perfect rig and dialing in fantastic tones. And I spent the next 23 years using that same rig and those same tones.
Then I made the switch to a modeler as a "full rig replacement". Can you blame me for taking six months to tweak it before I took it out of my home.

[timtheshredder]

I would go with the Fractal. I've always loved these and have never had a problem getting the sound I want out of them. Plus, there's always a benefit of not having to travel with so many pedals all the time. I figure if it's good enough for Vai to tour with, it will work for me.

[kmanick]

In a one guitar band with a good PA they sound great. In a 2 guitar band when the other guitar player is using a GOOD tube amp like a 5150-III or a Rectifier or a good Marshall.. the modeling software amp sound is pretty hard to hear. It just doesn't have that presence. You can't feel it. Other than that.. the tone is awesome.

I've been dealing with this lately. I've got a few great sounding patches that I use through a Mesa 2X12 (no FRFR just a real cab)
When the other guitarist is not playing I am nice and out front, sits nicely on top of the bass and drummer/vocalist, when he joins in with his 1X12 open back Egnator combo, I may as well just pretend I'm playing.
I completely disappear
I've gone back to using my JVM with the Axe Fx in 4CM because I go through a few effects during our sets. Really bums me out as the All modeling rig weighs nothing. a 100 watt JVM weighs plenty.
the JVM just takes up a lot more sonic space than the Axe FX does.

[jgcable]

I've been dealing with this lately. I've got a few great sounding patches that I use through a Mesa 2X12 (no FRFR just a real cab)
When the other guitarist is not playing I am nice and out front, sits nicely on top of the bass and drummer/vocalist, when he joins in with his 1X12 open back Egnator combo, I may as well just pretend I'm playing.
I completely disappear
I've gone back to using my JVM with the Axe Fx in 4CM because I go through a few effects during our sets. Really bums me out as the All modeling rig weighs nothing. a 100 watt JVM weighs plenty.
the JVM just takes up a lot more sonic space than the Axe FX does.

I don't know if there is any way around it. In a 1 guitar band.... Fractal, Kemper, Helix etc.. are all outstanding. I will be the first to say the tone is absolutely amazing. Perfect. Real... blah blah blah... Now... take my little Marshall DSL20H and a 1 or 2 12 cab and put it on the stage with the player using the modeling or profiling rig and POOF.... he disappears into thin air. Even when mic'd. It doesn't matter if the modeling/profiling rig is running direct, or if it has a FRFR onstage or if its running through the effects loop of a tube amp.

[jgcable]

I am absolutely going to go Helix eventually. I just need to be sold a little more live.

[PowerTube]

..... I'm mostly looking at this from the lens of the audience, but haven't like 80% of live hard rock bands always sounded like muddy dogshit? Am I the bad guy here? In my book, any technology that can help clean up that fucking mess is a good thing.

Pretty much. I hear guys obsess about their "tone" when run across a live Marshall 100-watt head in front of an audience, with a pounding drummer and massive bass wattage.

I seriously doubt that the audience cares if their fretboard is maple or ebony.

[rocksoldier]

jgcable: In my experience the Kemper cuts as good as any amp, even in a twin guitar band with a tube amp. I guess a Marshall may be more fail safe compared to the many crappy presets/profiles available though. Have you tried a current top tier modeler in a live situation yourself?

[pianoguyy]

Using my L6 gear (HD 500/500x/Pro/Pro X) as an example -

Many people have said the same thing about it being lost in the mix.
But many others stacked up the EQs in their patches to take care of it. But then, with the recent firmware upgrades, the addition of a Global Equalizer into the software seemed to solve the problem without needing to waste available slots.
If you dial out some of the ugly frequencies, you stand out in the mix.

If your pa is a pro rig, I would assume you are using graphic equalizers instead of B/M/T knobs, this would be able to do the same thing - dial out the bad stuff.

[paranoid]

Getting lost in the mix has a lot more to do with EQ then if it is an amp or modeler.. a full stack(any amp type) can get covered up buy a combo amp if the combo amp is in a feq range between the other members in the group and the stack is not. If there are 2 guitars in the band, they should set there tones together in the live setting( I know it will never happen that 2 guitarists with egos will give in take for the good of an over all tone). If your tone sounds killer by its self, it probably will not cut with the group.

[pianoguyy]

Getting lost in the mix has a lot more to do with EQ then if it is an amp or modeler..

Sorry, I guess this isn't the L6 forum. We're lacking some information here. My bad.

For whatever reason, there are some ugly unheard frequencies in the HD units, particularly when you go without a guitar cab. No one would really design their tone taking them out because you can't hear them. But if you take them out, you sit much better.

So, for these people above talking about their modeler not being able to keep up in a 2 guitar band, unheard frequencies could be the problem.