VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

[Venomboy]

At NAMM I got to play some VHTs, Bogners, and Diezels. Overall, all three amps have a lot of gain an variety.

VHT Pitbull Head w/5 band EQ: played with a Hamer archtop. I didn't love this amp, sounded a bit sterile. Could it be the guitar? The VHT guy was schooling me on the EQ and how it's voiced differently than other amps.

Bogners: Played the Uberschall, and Ecstasy with basket weave and chrome faces. These were thru a Les Paul. Lots of gain, but lots of little boost switches to play with. I'm not sure I fully exploited the power of these amps and I think the guitar had a bit to do with my frustration with the sound. I'm a EMG guy...

Diezel: Played with a Vigier guitar with EMGs. Holy ****e, what great amps. Peter from Diezel helped me with the settings. I could make the guitar scream with these amps.

All 3 sound different, all 3 can do good clean and high gain. A noisy NAMM show isn't the best place to make a buying decision but it sure is wonderful to have this stuff at your disposal.

[StuTDavis]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

I was at NAMM, too, saw this post, and thought I'd comment along here too...

I didn't try the VHT heads or combos, was mostly interested in the Valvulator rack preamp. I'd tried it last year, but saw they had a guitar more my style to check it out with, so decided to give it another go. Not "heavy death or thrash" metal gain to my ears by itself, much more open and crisp than a lot of other amps, but I'm sure with the onboard EQ it could darken up quite a bit too. I was really surprised with the Dynamics control on it. It's made to help increase the amp's input sensitivity and make it more reactive to playing, and it does it very well.

That was one thing I noticed a lot this year, a LOT of the amps are getting sooooo much better at providing highly sensitive and reactive inputs, that allow you to get really screaming harmonic leads, in particular, very easily, with nice sustain, even at lower to pretty low volumes. Hopefully, gone are the years of what I've always called "dead, flat, lifless" amps that you feel like you've got to bash the hell out of the strings just to get the thing to come through with a nice lead, again especially at lower volumes. The other thing about these newer ultra high-gain amps...they tend to sound a bit on the fizzy/buzzy side. Personally, I like a little bit of that, but not too much. I know that character turns a lot of people off, and rolling off the highs can help, but if you really want the amp to shine through, I think they really wanna fizz...nu-metal style.

Bogner Uberschall...sounded good when their guy demo'd it the first day I was there. Went back the next day and decided to have a go myself, and it just wasn't nearly the same. A lot of the time you can't tell if it's the guitar or the amp, or a difference in just sheer volume...but I was playing a Les Paul (yuck!) and the amp seemed cool, but kinda on the blah sound. My guess is it requires sheer volume to get its true guts to show through, which, as stated, is kinda a put-off to me. Got a demo CD from them, though, and there's good sounding stuff from the Uber on it.

Diezel...I tried one I believe was named "Herbert" (3 ch) and heard a guy demo'ing the 4-ch one, I think was called VP4 or something. The Herbert was the definite top-notch metal amp in my book. In my opinion, this is the amp to own...well...you might have to sell your car to buy it, but it's one hell of an amp. This thing will provide screaming leads at pretty much any volume...heavy thick chords, too. Very high gain sounding, very articulate and sensitive, very good stuff! The Diezel was less fizzy to my ears than the Uberschall (when I'd heard the Uber demo'd and it sounded good), had a bit more solid, punchy highs than fizzy ones.

H&K TriAmp...I also commented in the thread specifically asking about this amp. I didn't play it, but heard it demo'd. For the $$, I think this is the best compromise for someone not QUITE ready to sell their car to buy an amp, maybe their Kawasaki Ninja motorcycle hehehe. It's like 6 amps in one...sorta...3 channels, each of which have 2 different gain voicings. Again, it likes to be on the fizzy side, it seems, but to stand right by the Uber...I think the H&K could do a very good job. It screamed, it chunked...and we all had a good time yay!

Peavey stuff...eh...I walked in the Peavey demo room booth for a few minutes. Yaknow...their solid state tube-faker heads have really come a good long way. Nice sounding...not quite in the ballpark with these other amps, but very cool...and, to me, to my ears, it was better than the...

Marshall M4 Eh...I posted about it in another thread, but to be complete here, I just wasn't impressed at all.

What did surprise me was this company I'd never heard of--Cornford Amplification. Not for ultra-heavy nu-metal type stuff, but maybe for some older hair band metal and hard rock and on down... The guy at the booth told me they are the best selling amps in the UK by a wide margin. Well, that's what I think he said...the demo'er was pretty loud hehe. But the amp sounded great, to my ears, yaknow...just much more organic and alive than the Marshall you expect it to compete with. Got a demo CD from them and the best sounding one to my ears is the MK50H head.

Other stuff...preamps...what I usually go gaga for...

Carvin's new preamp...SX300R. Yaknow...for a $250 preamp...that's a pretty nice sounding unit. Again, I wouldn't say ultra-high gain metal...maybe with the right outboard support gear, but I was surprised at the leads that it could spit out. Has to be hampered with the fact that they only had them to demo through headphones.

Voodoo Lab preamp...demo'd for me. Cool! High-gain modded Marshall sound in a can! Very smooth, nice leads.

Rocktron preamps... I tried their new amp modeling Replitone MP preamp and the 4-channel VP4 tube preamp that's a supposed clone of the original Egnater IE4 preamp. I don't know if it was their try-out booth (again, with headphones) or if these 2 units just really sucked as much as they seemed to me. I really love some of Rocktron's other stuff, so I'm inclined to think that the drunk idiot who was hogging the booth while I stood there gazing at him for 30 minutes while he played on and on and on...must have f'd the display up somehow. Both of these preamps at that display just sounded horrible to me...I'd like to try them in a more reliable setting.

That's about all I can think of now...besides the bazillions of gorgeous guitars. Everybody's a wannabe PRS clone it seems, and classy-tops are the rage. Can't really blame em of getting in on the bandwagon, but geez, I'd have liked to have seen more "metal" looking guitars and cool graphics. To be fair, a lot of the little companies have been doing it (and some even better than PRS) for a long time anyway. But, man, it gets old seeing the same regurgitated thing over and over.

[monk]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

The new Diezel amp is called "Herbert" (I think its named after Peter Diezels dad or something [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] )

It has 3 channels and is supposed to be more directed to metal than the other Diezels.

The standard 4 channel Diezel is called VH4, and there is also a stereo-version called VH4S.

Diezel is also going to release a preamp (based on the VH4 I think) and a smaller version of the VH4 called VH2.

Did he give you a price on the Herbert? They are pretty expensive in Europe, and afaik they are REALLY expensive in the US.

//Anders

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

A Deizel preamp???? Wooohooo!!!

[monk]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

Yes.

The rumours are circulating on the HC board. I have even seen Peter Diezel himself posting there, where he says that they are surely going to release a preamp in 2003.

You really want to try that with the 2150 right? [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

//Anders

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

Yeah, that might be interesting to try into the 2150. I like my CAE more than anything I've owned, but you never know!

I'd like to just play a Diezel, haha... I haven't even seen one yet. The Herbert sounds pretty interesting.

[Soloist1]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

The VH4 apparently has a switching system similar to the CAE/Bradshaw stuff built in to the amp head for switching in effects and what have you. At least that is what I was told by a Diezel dealer. If that's the case I can see justifying the price tag when you compare what it would cost buying a switching unit and a boutique amp head separately.

[Ozz666]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

I was quite disappointed in the Diezel's there. I heard both the VH4 and the new one...I dont know if it was because you couldn't really crank them up there, but they were both pretty tight sounding, but the VH4 especially is more smoother and not articulate....it may be just my preference though...but for the price I'll opt for a Bogner.
I met Sean at Bogner and I asked him to plug into the Uberschall and even at low vol. that amp ripped...killer articulation and really tight...I was impressed. BTW, this Sat. Sean's Aerosmith band will be playing at Sean Kaley's in Lemont, IL so come check them out if you can.

I didn't play through any of the VHT combos or heads only the preamp. I agree with the above comments on it...it's nice, but didn't seem to be able to get as heavy and brutal as I'm looking for. Mike and Steve were awesome guys though...I talked with Steve for about 15 minutes and he's the coolest...a real genius too.

- Joel

[rockyourfacein]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

Maybe I'm just naive, but if these super high end 4000$ amps aren't really good enough, what is? after reading several of these boards its sort of amazing how these high priced boutique amps are sort of regarded as the norm, and now aren't even cutting it themselves! where exactly is the watermark that none of these amps are meeting? has anyone ever heard such a sound if so?
I enjoy hearing stories of all these nice things, but its really starting to get crazy. If none of these amps can really cut it gain-wise, I'd like to hear what level of gain you're talking about, and also how it mixes in with a full band type situation. again, I'm not slamming anyone for setting the bar high, I just want to sort of understand at what level we're dealing with here soundwise.

[LRGman]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

Yea, that is just what I was wondering. Especially since a lot of the bands and players we all follow, tour with 5150's, Mesa's and Marshalls. There aren't a lot of working musicians out there touring with all this high end ****.

I just think it reaches a point where really good players(not me) can get what the want coming out of a lot of different amps. The rest of us keep wanting some amp to magically increase our playing ability. We sit around and him and ha about how this 8 million dollar amp ain't nuttin. When really the equptment is hampered by our lack of creativity and ability.

[rockyourfacein]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

yeah, alls I have is a Marshall stack and I feel guilty playing that even! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] While I don't object to having nice things, its just personally I don't think I could live up to a piece of equipment that huge, or make the most use out of it. I like the idea that you can tweak and add/subtract stuff to sort of build the right rig from scratch, like Cleveland Metal's. although it would be nice to have Perfection in a Box, I think the other way seems like more fun, thats probably where I'd like to eventually go with my rig.

[Venomboy]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

Let me clarify...I think any of the new high gain amps I mentioned would work fine for anyone. I was trying to point out differences in tone with all of these. They all had a ton of gain. With the exception of the Diezel I played guitars with pickups that I would probably never use and that's probably why I wasn't terrible impressed with those amps.

Also, so many of these amps have so many controls, it can take a long time to really exploit their capabilities. And if the amp takes 6L6 and El34 tubes, then you're looking at even MORE variables.

Bottom line...everyone has an opinion. It's no secret that the JCFers are an opinionated bunch. Take it with a grain of salt [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[the_drip]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

when you get in the price ranges of these types of amps. I really think what your searching for is the one that is easiest for you as an individual to dial in the tone you're looking for. I think they are probably all capable of getting the job done in a more than satisfactory way...its just that maybe one is better for you. I try lots of amps out...and I always end up dialing in a very similar sound with each one. Except for the really cheap P.O.S amps. Now if I could only afford one. then it would all be complete...and world domination will ensue. muahahhahah...muahahahahaha.....hah?

[rockyourfacein]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

for 4000$, I want not only Perfection in a Box, but a small human being inside the box with perfect ears to dial in the perfect settings for me! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] but then again I like to get the most for my money.

It'd be great I'd just have to throw a little food in there when I retube.

[StuTDavis]

Re: VHT vs Bogner vs Diezel

It's true, there's an opinion from everyone for everything out there. Just like anything, amps and other gear have gone through many different stages of basic development throughout the years. Some of these "advancements" are minimally incremental at best, and some of them have made extremely powerful impacts on amps, as well as what players may have come to expect from their idea of the "perfect amp".

Take the "Master Volume" for one. The idea of having a seperate "preamp volume" and an overall "master volume" has made a HUGE difference in how different guitarists may perceive amps. Just by adding that one feature, for probably a lot of players, it eliminates their "need" to have an outside overdrive box goosing the amp for more gain, especially for anyone who can't play at stage-level volume everywhere they play, in order to get the sound they want, like they would with a "non master volume" type amp.

But that raises the bar for many people. Whereas before a "master volume", players would have to be content with the amps as-is, or add an overdrive pedal, they have the option, and may come to "expect" a certain level of sound quality (to their ears) from their amp. But then, what happens when they take that new "master volume" amp and STILL put an overdrive or distortion pedal up front? WOWZER! Now that REALLY makes the amp feel alive and sounds really heavy...but the minimalist, and the amp maker, would both like to not have to have a pedal up front. So now, how to get this really cranked preamp-gain-heavy "master volume amp" sound but even MORE distorted and gainy? Hey, let's add a diode-clipping heavy power amp stage instead of or even WITH a tube-based power amp stage...and...let's add even more gain up front, goose that input stage! And maybe an extended on-board EQ! And on and on it goes...

But just like everything, most every industry, there are those companies that are small enough to make these base changes in their amps rather quickly...or companies large enough to be able to afford several developments at one time. Whatever the case, eventually, someone else raises the "bar". But, at some point along the way, everytime expectations are raised, for the most part, amps all fall within a certain range of that expectation...they are somewhat similar...but with different "flavors" of sound or maybe feel. Add to this the fact that we've not only got just a few big-time amp-makers out there, but MANY MANY small amp makers out there, constantly feeding the pot, and you've got a lot of different flavors of amps, which all vary at least some in how they perform, sound and feel. Then, it comes down to player preference, players' budgets, and downright pickiness.

So, now, you get the choice... Maybe you play AMP-A then play AMP-B and think...gee, they're pretty close, sound kinda similar, but AMP-B just nudges a bit ahead...sounds a little better, responds a little better, and hey, it's got an extra feature you like that AMP-A doesn't. But, yipes...AMP-B costs $500 more!! Do you fork over the extra cash, or do you settle? What if it's $1000 more? $1500 more? How important to you are those factors you like better about AMP-B?

And it's the same for anything...cars, boats, houses, food processors, shoelaces. Just what are those incremental differences worth to you? And neither way is "wrong", just different. But, like with what you might see on stage...well...if you have to have a wall of amps, you might wanna settle with a wall of $1000 amps, rather than a wall of $3000 amps because...well...the $1000 amps do the job for you on stage well enough, they're not as big a risk if they get stolen or busted up, and probably very easy to find replacements for in stores locally if they go shot on you. Sounds smart to me. But, doesn't mean they don't have a room full of their "choice" $3000 amps at their home. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]