Preamps?

[pro-fusion]

Hey all, I'm a 'direct recordist' and I'm looking to switch setups from a PODxt to a non-modeling system. I used to use a Digitech 2101 for direct recording, so I'm familiar with that unit, although its cabinet simulation was rather primitive (which is why I switched to PODs--but I'm just not getting much of a tone there, either).

Anyway, I just won an eBay auction for an ADA Ampulator power amp/cabinet simulator, and I need a preamp to match it with. My budget is about $350 (unfortunately), and I'm considering picking up another 2101 to use as the front end into the Ampulator.

My question is this, what do you folks think of the ADA MP-1 Classic or the Carvin Quad-X as alternatives to getting a 2101? I've got something of a handle on the tonal qualities of the MP-1, thanks to www.adadepot.com, but I'm curious about the Quad-X. The Harmony Central reviews are all over the map--Some reviewers claim that it has more gain in channel 4 than you could possibly use, while others claim it is a moderate gain preamp, even on that channel.

To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I'd like to be able to achieve a rhythm tone something along the lines of Arch Enemy or Hammerfall--and without using a stompbox. On lead, I need a screaming tone between Vai and Petrucci. Heavily distorted, but still very tight and 'chunk-worthy'--none of this nu-metal stuff for me, thank you. The 2101 will do these sounds pretty well, but I wouldn't exactly call it a 'tone monster'.

Geez, after all these years of playing, you wouldn't think I'd be such a amp newbie, but I've been doing exclusively direct recording for so long, that I'm a bit out of it...just ask my wife! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Any thoughts on my dilemma?

[ July 03, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: pro-fusion ]

[StuTDavis]

Re: Preamps?

I would expect the ADA MP-1 (or MP-2 for more variety in sound) could get the sound you want, and from what I've heard about the Carvin, I'd expect it to get that sound, too. I don't think that sound itself is very hard to achieve. The one factor I'd be worried about is the sustain that solo artists like that have. I'd take a wild stab and guess that the sheer amount of gain I've heard is available in the Carvin, and its extra features to help, would put it a bit ahead, if I had to make the decision myself.

One issue to think about beyond that is effects. The 2101 had the bazillion effects thing going on, and these preamps you're talking about are the stripped-down preamp-only devices. You might not really want or need the effects specifically, though, I dunno. But there are lots of effects-only units out there to choose from if you need to add one to the setup.

I had an Ampulator several years ago, to see what they were like. For something that needed the extra little tubey sound and girth in there, it seemed to help a good bit. But I hadn't thought about the thing possibly being just mono before I got it, and once I got it and realized that, I was like...ehh...that's no good hehehe. If I was going to do recording, I wanted to be able to add stereo effects in there. And, since I couldn't afford to plunk down another big chunk of money to buy a 2nd one, I sold it. I was using it with a Rocktron Prophesy at the time, though, which I EQ'd to be rather solid-stateish and thin, and the Ampulator did a really nice job with thickening the tone for recording. Turn the knobs sloooooooooooowly--little tiny changes on the knobs can make a BIG difference in the sound. There is a very strong relationship between the knobs' affects on the sound, and turning one a tiny bit may throw off the sound, but turning another knob a little bit might fix it, and make it sound better. Required a lot of patience and very careful tweaking to get the sound "just right" for me. The other thing is, since you are adding pure tubey push in there, is that it can tend to get noisy. Again, just go slowly and be careful. It's definitely a unique and interesting unit to mess with hehe...

Stu

[pro-fusion]

Re: Preamps?

Thanks for the help, guys!

I picked up a 2101 today after work--I got a really great deal on it ($200), so I couldn't refuse. Anyway, I'll see what the Ampulator does with it. The 2101 has a solid state distortion that is mind-bogglingly heavy and great for death metal-type stuff, but I've never gotten a great sound out of the tube section using the primitive cabinet simulator built into it--apparently nothign more than a high-end rolloff. But I've played a 2101 through a power amp/cabinet and it sounded killer, so I'm hoping the Ampulator brings that out of the 2101. The 2101 makes the mono issue on the Ampulator a moot point, because I can just insert the Ampulator into the fx send/return point, which comes after the preamp section and just before the noise gate/effects section. I would then use the 2101's outs into the board.

The advantage of getting the 2101 first is that I can still use it if I decide to get a Quad-X, which I may end up doing. I would just go preamp-->Ampulator-->fx return of 2101-->board. I guess an MP-1 would be cheaper, but that Quad-X sounds like the shiznit to me!

[jgcable]

Re: Preamps?

The Quad X is a monster. I recorded an entire CD with it and it sounds incredible. Very tight, toneful and chunk worthy. It isn't the processed cheese wiz that most direct modelers sound like. This recording sound is the real deal. Live, I play Metallica,Godsmack, Disturbed etc... and my gain on channel 4 is on 4. Channel 3 is dimed out. Channel 1 and 2 are outstanding clean channels.

[horns666]

Re: Preamps?

Well call me old fasion but I still Love my tone of the JMP-1 but the Voodoo valve has more the modern crunch your looking for .....but they just don't have that lively , harmonically rich tone the Marshall has .....much like Cris Oliva , Glen Drover , H.Sherman , A.Laroque , M. Denner kinda sound ....that's what I like anyways.

John (Cleveland) will probably disagree with that but my mind's made up [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] .....my Ubershall (most Brutal amp ever) does NOT get that tone....but my Marshalls certainly do!!!

John's VHT / CAE (another brutal , tonefull son of a B) comes Damn close when tamed down a tad....but John just plays that stuff really , really well...So it always sounds good to me anyways!!

[pro-fusion]

Re: Preamps?

I've read a lot of bad reviews of the JMP-1, but know almost nothing about it. I don't even want to get into all that boutique stuff...I need another car too badly to start pouring that kind of $$$ into my rig! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The Voodoo valve sounds interesting, though.

[horns666]

Re: Preamps?

Well I think they are pretty cool .....if you like a more authenic classic Marshall tone , like the sound of Old JMPs , 800's and 900s ...it does that pretty nicely ....It's not really that great for Extreme metal .....But by tuning down , running the gain full up and a BBE 422 in the loop it get's a convincing Dimmu Borgir (Galder) tone......He uses JMP-1s for recording and plays Rectos live???

OH I forgot...Voodoo valves would do that stuff perfectly ...it has a darker and more gain but they are muddier than the Marshall well to my ears anyway...It's a trade off I suppose .

I like both preamps!

[ July 05, 2003, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: horns666 ]

[StuTDavis]

Re: Preamps?

What's your take on the feel and sensitivity of your JMP-1 vs. the Voodu and the CAE?

I had a JMP-1 a few years ago, and, I dunno, it just felt really unresponsive and "stiff" to me. Yaknow, like, I had to bash the hell out of the strings to get much out of them--that kinda thing? Having the Uber, you must go for that high-gain kinda sound, but I dunno if the high-gain feel is that important to you or not? Or maybe I just had a bad JMP-1? As I remember, I'd tried changing tubes in the thing to get it to loosen up a little, but didn't get very far with it...

[img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

Stu

[horns666]

Re: Preamps?

Hey Stu,

To make this short ....

well I'm just going to compare the Rocktron / Marshall ....becuse they are more of a apples to apples comparison.

I love MY JMP-1 !!! I only used this thing from day one with my Marshall 9200 monoblock w/ Sovtek 5881s and a JFX-1 (very nice souding) and a BBE 422 sometimes...

The Marshall has that Marshall tone that other preamps cannot nail .......period

I know exactly the feeling that you described with the JMP-1 ...but that "stiffness" is what I do like about it . The Marshall is my home amp so I banging away on this thing everyday and I play pretty heavy handed and hard .....so the cleaner Marshall tone works for me...

......then when I get to my Uberschall at practice 1-2 a week , I have to quickly try to adjust my heavy handed feel due to the "Girth" of the Bogner tone . If I play my Bogner with the same feeling I do with my home sound ...it sounds Mushy and really hairy until I soften my touch....does that make sense

The Voodoo Valve is a great preamp ...it has a darker tone / more gain and versatlity than the marshall but with that comes a little MUD ...well to my ears anyways...

...doesn't have that old Marshall knock and shimmer that I love and need....

BTW .......maybe your and john's old JMP-1 are normal ....maybe I got a weird one. I didn't like John's either ...it just sounded farty and dead . Mine is not farty nor dead...I guess that's ggod thing...

cheers

I typed this came super fast sorry in advance for typos ...Later!!!!!!

[StuTDavis]

Re: Preamps?

Bill,

Thanks for the comparison. I went through a phase buying preamp after preamp a while back, bought and ditched a lot of em. But now my setup is different, and I'm always back-thinking "geez, was the reason I didn't like that preamp because of the preamp...or my setup" hehehe... It almost makes me feel a little better when I find out it was the preamp, like with the kinda stiffness of the JMP-1, so I know I don't have to bug myself into buying the damn things again sometime hehehe.

Hehehe...yeah, I can see you being a heavy-handed player. Judging by your pic there, you're a pretty big dude hehehe. I'm a lil wimpy geek, so, bah, even an extra pound on a guitar body makes a huge difference to me hehehe.

I know what you're talking about the Marshall sound. To me, it's that distinct Marshall edge. When I go to just noodle around with my Egnater preamp, I'm mostly using the SuperLead/Plexi and modded SuperLead/Plexi modules. It's a fun sound to mess with, with that lil bit of edge in the girth. You're right, of all the preamps I've played, the JMP-1 gets that Marshall sound, and my Egnater modules get it, and that's it. Nothing else I've tried really did it so closely.

The Voodu is definitely an interesting preamp. I wanted to love that thing so much. My Prophesy didn't get the girth the Voodu did. But the Voodu has this little...weird hump or dip somewhere in the EQ range that gives its high-gain sounds a little of that kinda nu-metal sound, and it had just this little bit of "digital" that the Prophesy didn't have. I'd have loved to have the processing power of the Prophesy, with some of the girth of the Voodu, but oh well hehehe...the Egnater setup does it for me now.

Thanks,

Stu

[horns666]

Re: Preamps?

Stu ,

I would sure love to try one of those Egnaters....If it has that authentic Marshallness ....Nothin beats a good Marshall tone ....Now I'm not talkin' Gain or Bottom ....just pure tone!

When I dial up "the" sound in my head on any rig , I instanly go for that Old Van Halen tone first ....then try and add as much gain and bottom as I need to make that tone more brutal without getting flubby ....

......Lets admit it , No old Marshall is "Flubby" .....The new pieces of dung that Marshall makes now certainly are .....ALL OF THEM.....just to compete with the Nu-Recto monkey metal crap!!!

... That's what I know!!!! [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

.....Man do I hate this talentless , cookie cutter , jumpin' up and down like a gay chimp , scream then whisper scream then whisper , I'm very angry at my mommy , wear my red baseball cap backwards bullcrap , tongue-ringed to please my boyfriend so called Nu-friggin'-metal-dung..

....Just saw Soilwork open for Chimaria w/ In Flames tonight ....?????!!!! [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

For any of you who are not familiar with Chimaria ( [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img] )....see above paragraph for complete description

[lerxstcat]

Re: Preamps?

[img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] That was beautiful! It really IS you, Bill! [img]graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[horns666]

Re: Preamps?

Did you expect anything less from me.. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

.....I'm sorry the doctors might think I have that turettes , toretts , turtl....ahhh fuggit.....that syndrome thing

[StuTDavis]

Re: Preamps?

Bill,

HAHAHA! We're on the same page, pretty much, there, I think. For years I've called the
"scream then whisper scream then whisper" stuff you are talking about "whispery-shouty". I believe it all started, or started to become most popular first with Nine Inch Nails. Reznor did that crap to the hilt. Ooooh...I'm whispering...now I'm SHOUTING! Pick a freakin singing style and stick with it! At least when Metallica had songs that had acoustic parts then distorted parts, it melded together like a "song". NIN's stuff to me always sounded like he recorded 2 different songs then just choppped them up and edited them together. And that kinda thing still exists today...*sigh*

The Egnater module circuitry are actually supposed to be based on replicating the actual tone circuits of the original amps, from what I understand. From what Bruce Eganter's 2nd in command, Frank, told me, it wasn't about making a preamp that sounded like those amps...it was about recreating those amps. Hacked em apart to find out what doohickeys contributed exactly what to the sound, and got the parts to make it happen.

I LOVE messing with the SuperLead module on its SuperLead and Plexi voicings (it replicates both amps). It's not the ultra-high-gain stuff Egnater is known for, but it's just got this...you know...the Marshall sound, I guess hehehe. Turn the gain down some, fiddle with the EQing, and it's awesome and REAL (to me) bluesy/texas edged sound. Truth is, since I've never played an acutal old Marshall--only the newer ones--I always thought I didn't like Marshall sound. I kinda liked some of what the JMP-1 had, but it didn't have quite the feel I wanted. But, since having the Egnater, I've changed my view of Marshall a lot. Their older amps must have been a lot of fun. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I've got a lot of goodies in my setup, basically designed around the idea of making my rack setup get that "cranked sound" at any volume, since I'm just a home player. It's silly to me but, like John with his needing the EMG booster on the CAE's front end, I found I needed to really boost the Egnater in the front to get it where I wanted, too. I slam the front with some EQing, and some mild overdrive, and it really comes alive. I dunno why these amp designers don't just add in a built-in front-end boosting gain circuit knob on the things.

The Egnater has a very strong, powerful sound behind it, with lots of guts. It's always funny to me to think I'm using a souped-up VOX module to play Anthrax and the thrashy Metallica stuff hehe. The souped-up SuperLead/Plexi module is very cool, too. Think high-revving Marshall sound, with just a bit of the Mesa thickness added to it. Still has the Marshall edge, but higher gain and with a little extra girth hehehe.
I have the ERECT (Dual Rec) module, and it does the Mesa thing just right, for the little I play with that sound ("black album" Metallica junk). I've played a couple of the other modules, too, and some of the Randall ones, but found these fit my song sound styles and tastes best.

Take care,

Stu

[horns666]

Re: Preamps?

Stu,

I'm gettin' friggin' old!!! It's wierd but I'm from the day where we used to do some Real F'd up things to get our sound back in the day...

All we really had was Gibson or Fender guitars and Marshall or Fender amps at all our local music stores .....that was pretty much it . You could buy a Spankin' Gibson LP Standard all day for $300....boy I wish I knew that [img]graemlins/drool2.gif[/img]

Well anyways back to Amps ...All that my friends and I ever owned were Marshalls. We always knew someone who had a Boogie , Legend , or old whatnot...Oh Yeah Peavy just came out with their monster...the Rockmaster ..then "The Butcher" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Old Marshall were FUN man!!!!!!! Right before Eddie started to reveal his secrets ...Everyone was goin' nuts and messin with their Marhalls and crap.

First it was putting a blanket over your CRANKED Plexi probably facing the wall as well.....No Egnaters or G Majors to play with ...just a Tom Scholtz "PowerSoak" that caught on fire and melted into a puddle of black goo all over my Bro's brand spankin' new 1982 White Marshall anniversary MO' Fo' ....

Then Eddie revealed "The Variac" and everyone bought one ...like me and blew crap up.....

But Stu you haven't lived a full life until you play a really nice Marshall 100wt JCM 800 Lead Series , 2 ch. w / reverb head(2205 ?)... thru a 4-12 loaded w / 80 wt. Celestions!!!!......That still has to be one of the best I ever had/heard to date...A Boss OD-1 or DS-1 (front) and a DD-3 in the loop is all ya need really....Damn , I want another one! [img]graemlins/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Well .... I guess I do have a fondness for Marshalls [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]