help me settle a dispute

[IommiChild]

my friend and i were talkin today about amps and stuff becuase i'm looking for a new amp. He told me that if i'm "serious about music" then i need a 100 watt amp. we both play hard rock/metal type stuff, and i think his point is that you need tons of power to have a "metal" sound...i think he's full of crap - anyone out there have any opinions?

[Sinistas]

Re: help me settle a dispute

Yngwie uses 50 watt heads...

[Newc]

Re: help me settle a dispute

About 80% of the power of a 100 watt tube amp is heat. Given the higher frequencies of the guitar, you really only need 50-75 watts tops. 100 watts can't hurt, but it's generally overkill and is not necessary for "Metal Distortion". Distortion's not as much in the power rating as in the preamp. The Roland JC120 is a 120 watt stereo amp - with no distortion to speak of. Given your friend's theory, that thing should be eating Marshalls for lunch. While the JC120 has the best clean tone ever, I don't recall it even having a Distortion setting.

On the other hand, I've got a 4 watt power amp built by Pete (Twisteramps) that is as loud as my 100 watt Fender Roc Pro 1000 head [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
AND it gets a great power amp distortion tone (not suitable for raging Metal - maybe some blues).

Newc

[toejam]

Re: help me settle a dispute

100 watts isn't much louder than 50. Just get whatever wattage amp you want and then mic the freakin' thing if you "need" louder.

[taxistationary]

Re: help me settle a dispute

Newc, your right about the JC120. I own one, and although it does have what they call distortion, it sounds alot better off. More like a grit if you ask me. But anways, i agree with your point.

[Hotrodder]

Re: help me settle a dispute

The only time you "need" a 100 watt stack is if your playing woodstock without a PA. If you gig just try and dime your 100 watter, they wont have you back, it's just too freaking loud.

One of the best LesPaul/Marshall tones ever recorded was a Tele and a 5 watt supro (Led Zep 1).

30-50 (tube) watts is really all you need. (Double it for solid state.. JC120)

[JacksonJuiceBox]

Re: help me settle a dispute

Tell your friend he was dropped down a set of stairs when he was a baby ! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[IommiChild]

Re: help me settle a dispute

well, he was saying that it was hard for his 100 watt half stack to be heard over this drummer he was jamming with....the drums werent mic'd so i think maybe something is wrong with his amp settings or something....he's got a jcm 900

[lerxstcat]

Re: help me settle a dispute

Something in his signal chain is wrong if
his JCM900 100w 1/2 stack won't keep up with an unmiked drummer. He should check out the whole chain from guitar to cable
to amp input to impedance switch to speaker cable,and open the cab to make sure it's wired right (especially if it's
used).

Of course 800s and JMPs have a much fuller tone than the 900s, but he should still be easily keeping up with an unmiked drummer. Do the 900s have dual inputs like the JMPs do? If so, he needs
to try the high sensitivity input.

And as the other guy said, you'll lose gigs right and left diming a 100w tube head thru a 412 at a club. It makes it impossible for the soundman to mix the overall band levels, so the band will sound like cr@p just so one guy can dime
it out? Save that for the arenas or outdoor shows where it's called for.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: help me settle a dispute

if I dimed my 100w JCM800 2203 1/2 stack I wouldn't be able to hear the drummer if he wasn't mic'd

[toejam]

Re: help me settle a dispute

[img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] I jam out at my cousin's house once in awhile (he's got a drum set... and he hits hard and loud), and I can be heard with my little 15-watt Marshall mini stack that's got two 10" speaker cabinets. The amp isn't really that close to the drums, nor does it need to be cranked all the way. Riddle me that, Batman! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Zhilavarius]

Re: help me settle a dispute

I have a 2x50 amp with a 2x12 box (i made it with celestion vintage 30) and i could kill my drummer if i wanted to... i should buy a 2x20...

[ July 12, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Zhilavarius ]

[raymo]

Re: help me settle a dispute

From my experience, if you have the same amp but one is a 100w and another 50w, besides the 100 being slightly louder, to my ears the main difference is head room, and for distortion purposes I prefer the 50w amp. I have had 100w and 50w amps and I disagree with what your friend says that if you want to get serious you need a 100w amp.

[Newc]

Re: help me settle a dispute

Actually a 100w 1/2 stack CAN be drowned out by a drummer - if the mids are scooped. My ex-bassist was in another band where the two guitarists had the SuperScoop EQ setting, and they sounded great and crushing until the bass and drums came in - then they disappeared.
Believe it or not, a great Metal rhythm tone does not have deeply scooped mids, it's the way they are mixed that SOUNDS like the mids are cut. Actually, the low and high mids are boosted to a degree, leaving the 1K out so the vocals can be heard, or reserving that for leads (switching to a separate channel where the EQ is boosted slightly at 1K).
This is probably where your friend gets the idea you need massive power. If you scoop the mids completely out, you need to double or triple the power to be heard, or mic into the p.a.
Try the same amp settings through a 300w power amp into his 4x12 cabinet (rated for 300w?) and yes, he'll be heard a bit better, as he's getting more "loud power", but it's not necessary if you set your amp correctly.

I'd bet his live sound sucks as it is now - probably turns into a dull metallic buzz or white noise after the first song?

Newc

[ July 12, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Newc ]

[Accept2]

Re: help me settle a dispute

In order to double the volume of an amp, you need 10 times the wattage on average. A 100 Watt amp is actually not that much louder than a 50W. Pull out yer trusty ole db meter and check it out......Buy a small amp, and use a PA system. It will sound 1000000000 times better than a bunch of unmiced, unmixed amps anyday of the week...........