I got a bunch of simple questions

[paddok]

Ok first off, I want to start recording, and I was wondering what would be a better solution. Buying like a digital 8-track ? Or getting one of those "port" things that allow me to hook mic's and all that midi junk into my computer and then use cakewalk or cubase?

When using a 4 or an 8 track, do you do all the mixing / editing on the machine itself, or do you dump it to the computer and do it there.

What would be easier, for someone with little experience (but willing to learn and learns fast), not much space, and needing to be relativly quiet (unless recording with a band).

Should I go 4/8 track or a computer based solution ? If a 4/8 track is optimum, could someone suggest me a decent one for under ~350 dollars ? Used it ok too.

I plan on using it for a black metal project, me on all intraments, cept drum machine for well drums.

right now im thinking my RR1 > Behringer V AMP > recording device < drum machine and microphone.

Yes one final question from a novice, where does a mixer fit into all of this ?

[img]graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img] to anybody who can answer any of my questions. thanks all.

[raymo]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

I have a simple Tascam porta02 mkII 4 track. It doesnt get any simpler than that. If you want somefin great, which I think you do, I'd recommend one of those 16 track digital tascam gizmo's (all brands have the equivalent) but it does a lot of all that mixing and editing on board. You can always hook that mess up to your computer to further enhance your editing abilities. Mixers can be added, but the expensive units come pretty well prepared. I basically just emptied all my knowlege about that stuff, as you can tell I dont know too much about em.

[redmanjj]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

I use a POD 2.3, run straight into my sound card, and record with Cakewalk. For drums, I use a software based drum machine called Hammerhead, or something like that.

Cakewalk allows me to edit all I want, and with the POD into the computer I can record all night.


I used to have a Tascam 464, but I found I was doing all the mixing and editing on the computer anyway, so now I use it to record, too.

My $.02.

(Canadian money)

[paddok]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

I see, so is a mixer like an 8 track without the ability to record ?

[Infernal Death]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

I would say don't buy a 4-8 track recorder. I think it's much wiser to buy a good soundcard and do computer recording. You obviously already have a computer so why don't use it ? Remember for today's standart even the weakest computer will blow away anything of the stand-alone track recorders in term of processing power and ability to handle many tracks.
And after all 4-8 tracks today is just too few. I also work with a drum computer but i already use 8 tracks for the drum alone. That way at the end you are able to mix all different parts of your drum computer, for example making the bass drum louder.
So you want to make sure you at least have 16 tracks. And 16 track recorder are quite expensive.

With the computer solution you have much more flexibilty and power available. With small prices for big harddisks you can store many songs.A very big positive point of computer recording is that you have a quite big monitor for seeing everything. With those track recorders you are stuck with those small displays which can get quite annoying after some hours of work.

Finally on the computer vs. track recorder discussion i should add that the computer recording also has a weakness compared to the track recorders. You can have much more problems with a computer. You need to configure your soundcard and you can have compatibilty problems. A track recorder just runs much more stable.
But i think this problem of computers today isn't as big as it were. Today with Windows 2000 and XP you have some very stable running OS. Sure with Windows 95 it was always an adventure to run a recording computer (that's why still today MAC's are so in favour for many people because they were already stable back then).

Important for a computer recording system is the soundcard. It's not that wise to use a normal soundblaster card. Better invest in a dedicated recording card. Something like the Terratec EWS88MT which has 10 channels and can do 24bit/96khz recording.
I use the STAudio DSP2000 System. That's a soundcard with 24bit/96khz ability, a small daughterboard which hosts all digital in's/out's and a external 19" rack box which houses all converters (very important to have your converters outside of the computer case since converters can get disturbed by harddrives and other devices found in your computer case).
Here is a pic of it:


With the STAudio you already have 2 mic preamps in the converter box. Although they are nothing to write home about they are solid and serve well for some project recording.

As for a mixer:
Generally a mixer has some channels which consists of a amplifier stage (mic preamps and line amps) then a eq section, after that an sub group and aux section and finally with the faders a section to sum them to the stereo out.The sub groups are for mixing some of your channels to an additional stereo group (or more, depending on how many sub groups your mixer has. For example the Mackie 8bus series as the name implies has 8 sub groups, which are devided into 4 stereo groups). Those sub groups come in handy when you for example want a fader pair to regulate the overall loudness of your drum records. Say your drum records use 8 tracks. Then you assign those 8 tracks to your sub group and have your whole drum on this subgroup stereo track. If your drum is too loud on your song you can regulate the whole drum with only those two faders. If you wouldn't do that you would have to adjust all 8 faders.
Next are auxiliry sends and returns. Those are similar to the fx loops on an guitar amp. You can snatch the signal, go out of the mixer to a outboard gear like an EQ or compressor and with the return you can feed it back into your mixer. Comes in handy when you need processing on some of your channels.
Finally one of the main attributes of a mixing console is it's summing amps. Those summing amps (like the name implies) sum the processed signals of all your channels into one stereo track, the mains out.
As for the use of a mixing console. Basically speaking you can use the mixer for 2 things: Tracking and mixdown.
Tracking is the first recording stage where you record your instruments onto a recorder. You use the mic preamps of your mixer and plug in all your mikes. The best way is then to go out of the mixer on the direct out's of every channel (that is if your mixer has direct out's). That way you can lay down all recorded tracks seperately on your recorder and have the ability to later mix them all seperately.
The other thing is the mixdown. In this scenario you will fed all your tracks from your recorder to your mixer (ideally if the mixer has tape returns) and do the mixing (panning, eq'ing, compressing and so on) and summing all tracks to your final stereo track which will (after get mastering ) be on your final cd.

So as for your application a mixer isn't useful. When i was beginning to inform myself about recording i also thought i need a mixer. Beeing on a tigh budget like you everything i could buy was a behringer mixer. No the problem is that a inexpensive mixer simply isn't good. For tracking it's wiser to buy some dedicated mic preamps. For the same money of a small mixer you get a much higher quality stand alone mic preamp. And i guess you just need 1-2 channels of preamps. After all you don't want to record a whole band in one take do you ? And since you use a drum computer you don't have the need to mic a drumkit with 4 or 8 mics.
So better buy a dedicated mic preamp with 1-2 channels than a mixing board. The mixdown is something you can do with your recording software (cubase, sonar, whatever) which will sound much better than any inexpensive mixer.
I think a mixer is only a benefit if you need to have much outboard gear involved in your recording and if you have a nice budget of around $1k and up (best for a used mixing board). This way you can score yourself a 24 channel 8bus mixing console with nice preamps and useable EQ's. But if you don't have that money stay away from a mixer, well that's IMO.

For your guitar recording a V-Amp solution is quite ok. I think miking an good amp is better but not always possible. For example if you live in an appartment and can't crank your amp. But the V-Amp should give you some good results.
Oh and when recording guitars don't forget to double-track your guitar. Means either record 2 times your guitar track on two different tracks or recording 1 time and copy your track on another track. Then pan the two tracks (one at say 70% left and one at 70% right) and you will have a much bigger sounding guitar. It's a very common "trick" [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Ok i guess that's it. If you are still with me (and you didn't fall asleep through that long post [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ) i hope some things are clearer to you now. Maybe you can tell but i am quite interested in those recording things so if you have any further questions feel free to ask them [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Flo

[Hotrodder]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

My cuz used N-trak, whatever soundcard that came with his gateway, a pod, DI box (Not sure what that is/does... it's a little DOD box that plugs into the sound card, then you plug in mics, and the output of the pod, etc.. to the box) Used some mastering software (the name escapes me at the moment), burned everything on a CD and sent it to his label to handle the publishing.

That sounds a hell of alot more flexable than using a 8 track digital recorder that would of cost more. The most expencive thing was the mastering software ($300) N-trak was around $50.


BTW His band's site is http://www.finkrock.com of you want to hear a few songs

[paddok]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

Originally posted by Infernal Death:
Flo

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img] You sir, have become one of my favorite people on the JCF. Thank you for your always so apt and intelligent responses to all of my questions ! I will deffinatly look into that soundcard. Do you just mount that huge thing in a rack ? And yea basically since in 2 months I will be moving into a dorm, I figure I cant bring my 5150 half stack with me. heh.

I know im already asking too much, but do you think you could give me some recomendations on mic preamp, or anything else you recommend I buy ? (right now all I have is a computer, a v amp, and my jackson.

[paddok]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

Also do you know a good place to purchase the STAudio card from ? I read about it that it doesnt have "balanced outputs" ? But what exactly does that meen ?

Thanks a million,
Alex

[Infernal Death]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

Ok on to the next questions [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] :
Yes this rack case of the DSP2000 goes into a rack just like every regular rack gear.
Here is a pic of my old recording rack:

The blue thing under my self constructed XLR patchbay is the DSP2000 converter.

Yes if you don't have the ability of micing a real amp those amp modelers are sure the way to go. Although i think they don't stand a chance against a good tube amp miced [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

As a mic preamp a quite good and inexpensive choice is the Audiobuddy. I don't know where you are from but if you are from america you can buy it from musiciansfriend or every other big music gear dealer. It costs around $80 for 2 channels of mic preamp with 48V phantom power (which is necessary if you plan on buying a condenser mic).

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...p?q=audiobuddy

It sounds very good for the price. Also the studio projects VTB-1 might be worth considering. I should say i never used it but i heard quite good things. It's just a single channel mic preamp but you have a tube in it and the ability to blend this tube into your signal. I believe it's somewhere around $160-180.
Other things you should consider buying (besides the recording software):
A mic. Ok now it depends on what you want to do with it. Since i guess you want to record vocals with it (for the guitar you have your V-Amp) you might want to check into a condenser mic. Those are much better for recording vocals than the dynamic mics. An really inexpensive and good reviewed one is the Studio Projects B-1. It costs $80 and infos can be found here:
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/studprojb1re.html
If you want to have a little more professional mic you might want to check out the C-1 from Studio Projects. It's $200 and infos are here:
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/studprojc1st.html
Just remember if you choose a condenser you will need a mic preamp with phantom power which is something no soundcard preamp can deliver. The mic preamps in the StAudio DSP2000 rack case however have phantom power.
Ok next (and very important) point is your monitor application. With this i don't mean the computer monitor, i mean studio monitors with speakers to listen to what you have recorded. It's so important since those speakers should be as flat as possible. Hi-fi speakers normally have some adjusted frequency response, for example more bass and highs, since this will sound better. But with studio monitors you should not have those adjustments because if your speakers will produce more bass than your record originally has you might think it's enough and let it that way although maybe your record is bass weak. So if you take this record to somebody else who hasn't speakers with this bass adjustment he will hear a too tin recording.
Problem with studio monitors is that a ok set will easily charge you around $500. I have a passive set of alesis monitors with a alesis studio power amp (the power amp is the black thing on the bottom of my rack gear in the picture above. One of the speakers is also to be seen in the pic. It's the bigger one right on the left side of the rack. The smaller one is from my computer speaker system) and those already cost me around $400 used (and they aren't really great, just the best i could afford).
A headphone is also great for recording because you can plug it into the soundcard for hearing the playback while you play your guitar track. For example you can playback your drum track and record the guitar track while listening to the drum track through your headphones.
A good thing on studio headphones is that they are available as sealed headphones. That means they are completely around your ears and any music produced by them won't get that much outside of the headphones. Very useful if you want to record your vocals and need to hear the backing track for singing together with it. If you don't have a sealed headphone some music will leak out of your headphone and if you use a condenser mic for recording your vocals (condensers are very sensitive) you will automatically record something from the backing track through the mic on your vocal track and that's something you want to avoid.
Problem with headphones is that if you mix on them your mix won't translate on other systems as good as mixing through real studio monitors. Headphones always have a quite weak bass response (obviously through the use of those small speakers inside the headphones).
So my advice would be to bite the pain and save up for some good studio monitors. At the end it's more than worth it, that is if you really plan on getting a little more serious into recording.

Hmm ok i think this list will get you started. With a good recording software normally you have some plug-ins so you don't have the need to buy hardware compressors and eq's right away. (and normally plug-ins are much better than any inexpensive outboard compressors and eq's from behringer and the likes. Only the more professional stuff will sound noticable better than most of the plugins and this gear is expensive)

Another way of aquiring recording gear is to build it yourself. I already builded a 2 channel mic preamp and a compressor and both really work well. But you need to be able to read a schematic, use a soldering iron and it will require several hours of work and patience. But for small money you can build really amazing gear. 3 weeks ago i finished my Urei 1176 clone and it sounds amazing. Real class a gain makeup and output transformer deliever a "pro sound". The original version costs over $2000 and my clone did run my around $250 so i am quite happy [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
A very bad pic (but the only one i have) from my DIY mic preamp:



I bought my DSP2000 here in germany so i don't think this will help you. But you can buy the DSP2000 set at musicians friend. After all this card is on the beginning end of serious recording cards so it's quite expensive ($450). Infos are here:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/.../base_id/53896
If that's too expensive there are several other good soundcards as the M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It costs $150 at musicians friend and infos are here:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/.../base_id/52393
It just doesn't have a rack case with external converters and it isn't a 10 channel unit like the STAudio but then again it's much cheaper and might be more what you are looking for.

As for the balanced thing:
A balanced signal consists of 3 signals. Ground, hot signal (or called +) and cold signal (or called -). Unbalanced signal has only 2 signals. + and ground. Most professional gear is balanced (normally connected through XLR connectors or stereo TRS connectors). The STAudio DSP2000 has 2 of it's 8 analog channels in balanced version (those are the 2 channels with mic preamps on it). The other 6 channels are only available in unbalanced configuration. It just helps to cut costs and it really isn't that necessary. The biggest point of using balanced signals is that those signals are very unaffected against noise on long cables. But balanced gear isn't necessary in your typical home studio since you have all your gear on one place. You can also hook up balanced gear with unbalanced gear. Just buy some balanced cables and on the side for the unbalanced gear solder the - and ground together to the ground pin of the unbalanced connector.

Ok if there are any questions left or something is not clear again feel free to ask [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Flo

[paddok]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

Once again flo, you did awsome with my questions. I think you have given me exactly what I am looking for.

But after seeing the pictures of your dual recto w/ marshall cab, im worried that since I will be in a low noise environment, that my attempts to record will be pretty much futile.

Do you think this would be the case ? assuming I was running my guitar into the v amp and then into the sound card ?

Rather than running guitar into amp and then having a microphone record it from the amp ?

[Infernal Death]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

Like i said above i prefer the sound of a real tube amp. That being said since i am a student i still live at home with my parents and they are quite forgiving about volume of my guitar amp.
But i think you can get quite some good results using a V-Amp. After all it has a speaker simulation.
If you would plan on recording your guitar direct into the soundcard or going from a normal guitar preamp into the soundcard i would have to say that you won't get good results (that is distorted, playing clean can sound nice direct recorded).
Do you have a soundcard in your computer ? If yes you can try to hook up your V-Amp to the line in of this soundcard and do some recording (download a shareware version of a small recording software ). This way you can see what your results will be. Sure your results with a better soundcard with better converters will be better but you should get quite some nice tones out of the V-Amp.

However i still think for serious recording there is no alternative for a tube amp. But if you don't have the luxury of using one a amp modeler like the V-Amp or the POD is your best bet.

Flo

[Inazone]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

I think Flo pretty much covered everything on the topic, but I'll post my setup anyway, because I was in the position of comparing 4-track recorders to computer-based recording at this time last year. I had already bought a J-Station (came with Cakewalk Guitar Tracks) to experiment with recording into a SoundBlaster Live card. Once I got the hang of it, I got the following:

Echo MIA PCI soundcard - dual 1/4" inputs & outputs
Behringer 4-track mixer - XLR mic inputs on two channels for recording amps
Roland Micro Monitors
Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 (free from a friend)

I also have an ART Tube MP and ART ProVerb available if I need them, and I use the J-Station for bass recording since its bass models are quite good. I also have an old Yamaha DD100 electronic drum "kit", the single-piece unit with 7 pads, 2 pedals, that you actually play rather than program; I bought it because it has a 1/4" out that I can run to my mixer or soundcard.

The whole setup, although not perfect, has made it extremely easy to record direct or using my "live rig" through any number of amps and pedals. Any shortcomings of this setup are because of my lack of knowledge. I highly recommend computer-based recording, as it is way more flexible than using a 4-track or anything similar. I can record, bounce tracks, record harmonies and overdubs, and then burn to CD or upload to the Internet in very little time.

[paddok]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

Thanks again everybody, especially Infernal Death heh. Yea Im a bit bummed that I dont have room to take my 5150 with me. /saves thread.

ps. awsome posters flo. [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[JiMoSiTY]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

You know, what I use is really damn simple and gives a totally killer recording.

I've got a Line6 head that I run direct into my mixer, then out of the mixer into an M-Audio Delta 66 (but a Delta 44 would work just fine if you have your own mixer... Same thing but cheaper due to the lack of the unused SPDIF connections or whatever they are called.... If you don't have a mixer, they make a model called the M-Audio Omni Studio that you should check out.)

Anyways; the Delta 66 is a card that goes into a PC and then has a breakout box that gives you 4 in/4 out (or you can change it to route however you need...)
That gets the signals from my mixer into the PC, then I use Cool Edit Pro 1.2a for all recording.
In my opinion, this is the best, easiest to use recording software available for guitar players.

This is a fairly simple setup and really gives a great sound recording for not a ton of money.

If you'd like, I can post a link to some recordings I've done with this setup.

[Black Mariah]

Re: I got a bunch of simple questions

My current setup is a Ross 24 channel mixer and Fostex 80 1/4" 8 track. I mix down to DAT, then dump everything onto my computer for final tweaking. Very simple, and the whole setup cost me less than $500. I've been able to get some good results with it. Such as: http://www.onlinerock.com/musicians/...owupthesun.mp3
Not the greatest recording ever, but far better than most of the demos I've heard.

BTW, expensive-ass monitors are NOT a requirement. No matter what, you're going to end up with a mix that sounds like ass on some speakers somewhere. The key is to test everything out on as many different setups as you can. This is true even if you have the highest-end monitors available.