Effects loop question

[paddok]

Why does distortion and whatnot sound so radically different when its in the effects loop on the amp rather than being infront of the guitar when plugging it in ? like guitar to stomp box to amp.

I was playing arround with my Boss MT-2 and I actually got a sound out of it I really enjoyed infront of my Mesa Studio .22 but when ran through the effects loop it was a totally different sound (and worse to my ears).

Can someone explain to me what happened ?

I did the same with my Boss super overdrive pedal. Man I need some chorus and delay pedals to play with.

[StuTDavis]

Re: Effects loop question

It's because everything in a signal chain is affected by every piece of the equation that comes before it. Think about it...

Guitar-->Pedal-->Amp-->Speakers

In that situation, the guitar, its electronics, and the cable are the only pieces of gear before the pedal, affecting the sound going into the pedal.

Gutiar-->Amp's Preamp-->Amp's Loop Send-->
Pedal--> Amp's Loop Return-->Amp's Power Amp
-->Speakers

In that situation, you're adding parts of the amp itself to the equation BEFORE the pedal. The amp's preamp section and possibly EQ are going to affect the signal that goes into the pedal. The pedal then affects THAT sound, modifies it, and sends it back into the amp to then be modified again, before being sent out to the speakers.

While you have the same ingredients in the mixture, they are in a different order, and that order affects the sound. Just like if you made a pie, but instead of putting fruit inside the pie before you cook it, you put it on after you take the crust out of the oven. You've got the same ingredients, combined in the same basic motions or steps, but the ORDER in which you do those steps matters and makes the difference.

Hmm...hope that makes sense.

Stu

[paddok]

Re: Effects loop question

It does thank you. So is it wrong to do use things like distortion pedals in an effects loop ?

Like, was the original intent of the effects loop to be for things like EQ's and whatnot ?

Thanks for the information,
I had a general idea why, but I wasnt quite sure were the effect loop came into effect be it before the preamp or after.

[toejam]

Re: Effects loop question

The effect loop comes in after the preamp, before the power amp. Gain-based effects like wah, od/distortions should be used in front of the amp and not in the loop; they usually sound like ass in the loop. Wah can be used in a loop with good results, for a little different, less pronounced sound, but it usually doesn't sound all that good, IMO. Time-based effects like chorus, tremolo, phaser, flanger are better in the loop. EQ can be used either in front or in the loop, but it usually sounds better in the loop.

[ November 21, 2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: toejam ]

[paddok]

Re: Effects loop question

Gotcha, thanks.

Can someone suggest me a good EQ to start with? preferably under a hundred bucks ?

[JACKSONFREAK]

Re: Effects loop question

Boss GE7. Graphic eq pedal. ABout 90.00 bucks usually.
Gil

[StuTDavis]

Re: Effects loop question

As for the reason why overdrive and distortion generally don't sound so good in the loop, I believe it has to do with amps not really being designed to receive that hot of an extra signal push INSIDE of the amp. Just like the front Input of an amp, I'd assume anything inside of the amp's circuitry could be "overdriven" or possibly "overloaded" by too high of a signal. Like anything else, amps are designed with certain "standard" configurations in mind, and when you go beyond those configurations, it naturally isn't capable of handling the situation properly. My guess is, if you put anything in the loop and cranked its volume way high, especially along with the preamp being driven hard, it would do nasty things to your sound. Not something I'd suggest trying, just in case it could cause a problem hehehe.

Guys, do those EQ pedals really work well in the loop like that? That's something I've always been curious about--being they're pedals, the signal mismatch doesn't cause problems?

Stu

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: Effects loop question

general rule of thumb,

effects loops sound best for time based effects.

delay, chorus, flange, verb, etc...

[ November 23, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Dreamland_Rebel ]

[toejam]

Re: Effects loop question

I still sometimes use my old DOD FX40B eq from the '80s (gray with red sliders). The new version is gray with black sliders, I believe. It's got 18dB cut/boost compared to the Boss' 15dB range. Though, both are cool.
Also, I should qualify what I said about time-based effects. They do sound good in front of the amp and you should experiment with them there to see if YOU like the sound better than in the loop. OD/distortions always go in front of the amp.

[toejam]

Re: Effects loop question

Originally posted by StuTDavis:
Guys, do those EQ pedals really work well in the loop like that? That's something I've always been curious about--being they're pedals, the signal mismatch doesn't cause problems?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I first got the eq pedal in the '80s with my cheesey little Gorilla amp, I had to put it in front of it because there was no loop. It sounded pretty good. When I got my Valvestate in the early '90s, I tried the eq in the loop and found it sounded much better there than in front, never had any mismatch problems. I've also tried it with my Mesa and found it also sounds better in the loop, no mismatch problems at all.

[StuTDavis]

Re: Effects loop question

Are you actually EQing the same on the EQ in the loop as you had in the front? Things like this make me think that people are doing that. As in, trying to scoop mids in an EQ before the amp input to get thrashy scooped-mids sound. Well, that's not really the place that's best to do that sort of EQing, to get the best effect from it. So, of course, when those people put it in the loop, it works better for that, and then they think the EQ sounds better in the loop than up front. When, really, of course it sounds better for that application of EQing in the loop--that's where it really makes the most sense for it to be done.

EQing before the amp, in my experience, is generally best used for reducing certain annoying frequency areas (such as de-muddifying the bass), boosting certain frequencies that are lacking (as in adding high end sparkle) and/or boosting overall level into the amp's front input, in order to "push the amp".

The further down the signal line any unit is, the more of the overall sound it's going to be affecting. So, in the loop, if you scoop the mids, you're scooping them to the most extent you can. Scooping mids in front of an amp, on the other hand, might scoop your guitar's sound, and any other pedals in between, but the amp's then going to add more mids into the sound anyway, and scooping mids before the amp generally wimps down the sound. It's like that for every frequency area...doing it before the amp vs. in the loop (after the preamp) can have anywhere from slighly to completely different affect on the sound and your playing experience.

It's good to know the general effects EQing has in different parts of the signal chain, to have an idea of how to set it up without going through a huge headache of experimenting with every single possibility. And confidence with EQing helps keep people from having to ask "what are your EQ settings on such-and-such" all the time HAHAHA! Because, seriously, someone might not like someone else's EQ settings and decide they don't like their gear when it's possible that a slight modification (based on undersanding and knowledge of EQing) could give them a setup they love.

Stu

[Venomboy]

Re: Effects loop question

MXR M108 10 band eq. New, they're around $119. Not many stores carry them. However, this is a great pedal. True bypass and built like a tank. I'm running one in my VHTs loop. My friend bought my Single Recto from me, plugged the eq in the loop then made one of those "Oh crap, now I NEED that pedal" faces.