Serious Line 6 discussion..

[jgcable]

I just scored a Spider 2 150 watt combo amp from sworn_enemy (Tom). This particular Line 6 amp has just the basic features but includes everything that 95% of guitar players would ever need. It is 150 watts (75w per side) and is an open back cabinet loaded with Celestion 12" speakers. I had a quick band practice 1 hour after he dropped the amp off so I only had time to set the amp back to original factory settings and run with the factory presets. I only added a little delay and reverb to some of the presets. I would like to discuss volume in a band setting. It seems that most of you feel that modeling amps don't cut it in a live and loud band setting. I have consistantly stood my ground stating that my old Flextone HD and my bandmates Vetta 2 were absolutely brutal in the loudness department. We have done large gigs and neither of us have ever had the volume past 3. Now... to the Spider 2 combo. I never got past 4 on the volume at a brutally loud band practice. The other guitar player uses a Vetta 2 head and a Mesa 4 x 12 cabinet. The Spider 2 combo cut through like a knife, I heard every note I played, the thump that comes out of this combo rivals some 4 x 12 cabinets. I have a basement full of Boogies so I know what tube volume is all about but I just don't get why some players feel a modeling amp can't cut it live. How can my ears and the other guys in the bands ears be wrong? What am I missing here? I am not comparing the Spider 2 to my Boogies because they are completely different amps. I prefer to play my Mesa amps anyway just because I am a tube snob and I love the Boogie tone. I am strictly talking about a Line 6 amps volume and presence. The Spider 2 , 2 x 12 combo is Line 6's bottom of the line 2 x 12 combo. I just can't see the need to ever need more volume and presence than I could get with the Spider on 4. I did turn it up to 6 at 1 point and it sounded fantasic but it was to loud for the rest of the band. Please respond with actual real life comments. I can't understand when somebody chimes in about their Bogner or Marshall or Mesa claiming they dime them out when they play live. My guess is the NOBODY ever gets bast 3 or 4 on a high power tube amp live. I just don't see the difference in volume and presence live between a Marshall or a Mesa or a Bogner or a VHT on 3 and a Line 6 modeling amp on 4. I can hear the difference on 7 but who the heck plays that loud? Maybe I am just old! Maybe loud in todays Metal club scene is much louder than how metal was played in clubs back in the 80's. Maybe the new metal guitarist rely on stage volume coming from their amps more than the PA. Maybe todays metal bands practice at deafening ear splitting volume levels. We practice very loud with a 1200watt PA system and a 400watt monitor system and I never have a problem hearing myself with a Line 6 amp. My other guitar player actually stopped using his dual and triple rectifiers because the Vetta 2 sounds better and cuts through more.Plus it is so darn convenient. What am I missing here??

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I can't comment on modelers live, never used one. I can say that I regularly played live past 3-4 on 2203's and 2204's. The 80's and early 90's metal were all about excessiveness, including volume. Yes 3 or 4 was plenty loud enough but 5-7 was louder. I was using 2-3 amps and between 2 and 4 4x12's. Ah the good old days when not only did you have to try to be the best band in town, you had to be the loudest too I do notice a difference going from 4-6 but from 7 to 10, not much to my ears.

I do know that new spiders sound like great little amps for what they cost and for what they are. Its also good knowing that people who have tube stuff and know tone (like you) chime in and give honest reviews on them so people will really know what these things can do in true situations that musicians have to deal with. I love tube amps too but I fret at solid state amps and modelers even though I got some pretty good tone out of them. I guess I'm old school and I'm reluctant to any change if what I use works for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you can get the tone that you want out of solid state amp, amp modelers or a damn cardboard box with ghetto blaster speakers...who cares? Use what you think sounds good, not what some gear snob who thinks heavy tone is achieved with heavy price tag lol [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Chuckracer]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I can't comment on using modeler live either, but I did finally figure out what I don't like about them.
They feel detached from my hands. Like I'm listening to someone else play, or playing with the amp in another room. There's no connection. It just feels...remote.

I suppose they're cool and all, just not for me.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Preach it Chuck!

[Ace]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Chuck more or less put into words one of the things that I a not a fan of when it comes to modeling/soild state amps. Sometimes I can get into a solid state or modeling amp, and they sound good, but when I fire up my tube rig, it's like "Oh yeah, that's what I'm talking about." Maybe it's all in my head, but that's where my playing comes from too, so what goes on in my head makes a big difference too.

[ApeDosMil]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

woo this makes me want to get it now...

[dinkyjacksonman]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I like them but just I prefer tube amps.
Great unit for recording or practice but the sound I hear from these line6/Behringer are so isolated.

[Lauri]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I had Peavey 5150II, liked the lead channel, but sold it because of crappy effects loop and i dont like to play with floor pedals for effects or when i want litle bit different sound to solos. Bought Line6 HD147, i play it through line6 4x12" cabinet with celestion speakers. I got 32 amp models and good effects on same baggage. Okay, no body will ever use all 32 amps, but it has really great and real sounding models like 5150II, Cornford, Mesa's, Bogners and Diezels. Ofcource i would take real bogner or Diezel before 147, but who really has this much money to spend?

Mine 147 cuts thru band easily. Im happy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I agree with you Chuck. That is precisely why I prefer playing my Boogies. They feel alive and are very reactive to my playing style. My post isn't a debate over which type of amp is better or even which one I like better. It is strictly a volume and presence thing in a live setting which is what 90% of all the complaints regarding modeling amps are all about. I guess if you are playing your 100W Marshalls or Mesa stacks's at a volume between 7-10 I can understand that a modeling amp will have a problem competing. Any SS amp would for that matter. My point is that there aren't too many players that play at that kind of EXTREME volume so I fail to see the volume/presence problem regarding Line 6 amps in the majority of live and loud band situations. I have been shredding metal live in a band since Judas Priest opened up for Kiss in 1976 so I think I have a pretty good idea what loud is. I just don't get it.

[Fragle]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

well, i guess the main issue isnt volume. you're completely right, when playing gigs one will most likely not crank his 100w tube head to 7, but will cut back to about 3-5 and let the pa do the loudness job. i guess most of the time the line 6 problem is related to the room the band is rehearsing at. of course its not always like this, but i guess most of the time rehearsal rooms are quite small. now, if you turn your amp up to the point where you are balanced with your drummer, you often drown out yourself because the sound is reflected by the walls. and then you will go and turn the amp up to 7. and at this point, (which is insanely loud, of course) the line 6 just doesnt sound as good as a tube amp - like you said above.

well, i don't know where you guys are rehearsing, but our band shares the room with 4 other bands, and i can honestly say they all play louder than we do - and i indeed turn my amp up to 7 (for comparison: i'd say at least half of the shows i've been to were not as loud as we are when rehearsing. that includes stuff like nevermore, yngwie malmsteen (we all know how loud he is [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) and dream theater. i guess only bands like acdc, motörhead and slayer are louder).

greets
fragle


side note: we've also rehearsed at really big rooms.....about 150m². i turned my amp up to 3 and heared everything perfectly

[data187]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

i tried out a bunch of tube amps, ss amps, modelers and ended up with a hd147. the tube amps all sounded great but only at a very high volume. the ss amps are usually very good sounding at low volumes but begin to sound thin at high volumes. the hd147 and the vetta sounded good at any volume, is versatile and easy to lug around. the only downside is the low distortion stuff, where on a tube amp, you can control the breakup with the guitar volume, on the modelers, the sensitvity/control is not there.

[Newc]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

But has anyone done a side-by-side comparison of modelers and the amps they are modeling? I mean a blindfold test, not a "ok, now I'm noodling into this crapass wannabe computer box, and now I'm giving my absolute BEST into my all-tube 'bear-my-children' Metalloblaster rig".
See, it's really easy to look at something and denounce it as crap before actually hearing it, or even to pick all the faults out of something after you've heard it but didn't know it was what it was, so I wanna see you tube guys do a blindfold test between a modeler and your brand of amp. Not with your favorite settings already in your amp either, because you'd know by the custom EQ settings it was yours.
Say you were in a room with a Vetta or HD head or POD or V-Amp and your favorite brand of all tube head into your favorite brand of 4x12 cab with your favorite brand of speakers, EQs for everything set at whatever the Factory Presets are in the modelers (0? halfway up? whatever), and you have your backs to them. Too bad you can't rig a dummy head with all the EQ/tone shaping controls (except for those unique ones that you hit and say "ah HAH! THAT'S the Bogner, cuz only a Bog has that" - I mean the EQ, Presence, Gains, and Volumes. Then again, I'll assume the modelers also have something that models the unique switches and such on the real amps (Bright switch, etc etc)?

In any event, I'd really like to see someone conduct those tests exactly like that. The results would be very interesting.

I think some of the disdain for modelers stems from sticker shock - if you pay $5000 for a boutique head and someone else spends $200 for a POD and gets the SAME sound out of it, plus the same sounds of many other real amps, then I'm sure you'd be a bit jealous that you spent all that money for one amp and the other guy spent a fraction and got a dozen different amps.

Just my $0.02

Newc

[hippietim]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

The thing with the modelers is that they don't capture everything an amp can do.

For instance, take the Vetta II. I have one and think it sounds great.

Now put it side by side with my Marshall Plexi reissue cranked up. I can dial the Vetta in to sound pretty close to the Plexi. It's not going to sound exactly the same because they didn't sit down and model MY specific amp. However, the Vetta passes the basic test and sounds like a nice cranked Plexi. But when I do different stuff with the plexi like jumper the channels, don't crank it, or whatever - the Vetta falls short. Why? Well when they did the Plexi model on the Vetta they were going for the classic cranked tone. They did not capture everything.

Same goes for the Bogner.

I've played through a bunch of Ecstacy's (sadly none have come home with me) and the Ecstacy is capable of a large variety of tones that the Vetta model is not capable of. The Vetta nails the signature sound but not the rest.

This arrangement is fine with me. I like having a dirty Diesel, clean Twin, and crunchy Marshall all in one amp. No tube amp can come close to that. It's a tradeoff.

So Newc, the current crop of modelers will fail your test. Plus when it comes to modeling those old amps it gets difficult to compare because there was such a wide variance in those to begin with.

Of course I say all this and the amp I play through the most is a Fender Pro Junior (which is basically a tweed champ with a bit more nuts and bigger speaker) - so wht the hell do I know.

[sully]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

yes newc; i've been in that exact situation (about the side by side with the model and the real thing the model is modeling). when pete and i went to the hc amp fest in the dallas area last month, pete brought his vetta and set it up next to an engl, a soldano somethingorother (that i liked, btw, i just forget the name... avenger maybe?), a bunch of bogners, and a marshall dsl (or maybe it was cable, har har har).

to my ears, i'd say that the vetta was dead on to what they were supposed to sound like. i also remember the owners of the bogners, etc, smiling nervously as they said "that sounds too close for comfort."

now i'm by no means a big amp guy; i just look at them as a means to an end. from what i've been told by people whose opinions i respect is that the line 6 stuff comes very very very close to what they're supposed to sound like. and really, that's good enough for me. if i were to buy a big amp (i've got a jcm 800 50 watt combo that i guess fits my needs, so i have no reason to do so), i'd get the vetta because it's way more versatile, and to me, it sounds like what it's supposed to.

sully

[Rhmsc8]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Just my opinion.

I have had Mesa, Marshall, Ampeg, Fender and Peavey. They are phenominal!!! However, I no longer play out... I no longer have a rehersal room to store 6 cabs or a house on 6 acres so I can turn up. I have a 75ft x 125ft lot and a 1250 sq ft house with neighbor that could bore the world to death. Now I own a Vetta combo with the 2x12 extension cab and the longboard. (and a nice pair of headphones) Excuse me I am crying as I think about this...(LOL) ATM, I wouldn't trade it for the world. My wife would go before my Vetta or my Jacks.

FOR WHAT I DO (Which isn't much... Didn't you read the first part of this post)it is awesome. I love the versatility. You are right about the missing models, unfortunatley... It is like they modeled a specific and that is it. Oh well. I love it.

Just my opinion.