Serious Line 6 discussion..

[markD]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

i used to use a Line 6 flextone II HD with a rivera 4x12 loaded with JBL G12-S speakers. when we played live and i used that head it was very sterile, extremely bright and lacked the tonal complexity of my rivera heads. i hated the sound coming from the cab, so i switched cabs to a marshall 1960 with 75 watt celestions. same problem. so i switched again to an eminence loaded fender GE-412. it was better but still felt "dead". i called Line 6 and asked them what i should do to help the amp sound better. they said turn off the cab models. i did, and the sound was actually worse.

i gave up on the HD and sold to a friend who went and bought a line 6 4x12 cab. it sounds great when he plays it. it sounds like ass when i play it.

i went back to using my riveras on stage. i am happiest with their sound and response to my playing. i felt that the line 6 was brighter and more aggressive in the highs. it really cut through, but it was harsh and painfully trebly.

having said that i will only record with a line 6 POD. i can get my live tones (go figure) to tape much easier and more consistently than by micing an amp. my band records one song at a time, and it is much easier using a modeller for that than trying to capture all the atmospheric considerations needed to get a good "live" amp sound to tape.

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

There is a HUGE difference between the old line 6 amps and the new generation models. The Flextone 2 HD sounds like a toy when comparing it to a Vetta 2.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

The thing to remember, is that they only sample a section of a guitar note to engineer the tone for a DSP setting. They don't really take into account the nuances of attack and decay. Plus, at this time the sampling rates are iffy. So, reproduction suffers.

Someday, they will come a lot closer when better chips, better processors are used in these amps.

Aside from that, seems these things just don't cut through the muck like yubes do, and certainly don't sing, like a tube does. Wish they did as my back and pocket book would GREATY appreciate my using one.

Until then, tubes man, tubes...

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Clev... did you ever try a Vetta 2??

[Twisteramps]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Everyone knows how I feel about them there modelling amps. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] A few things that I've always heard about modellers that is BS, at least in my experience with the Vetta:

1) Modellers can't punch through a mix
BS, my Vetta was parting hair at the ampfest. I ran it in stereo with two bogner cabs (an uberkab and a think a V30 ecstacy cab...) and some of the guys there wondered how loud it was. I put it at 1/2 way up at full power, slammed a power chord and it was LOUD. This was right after a Bogner Uberschall and an Engl Powerball were both cranked in the room.

2) Modelling amps won't clean up
Depends on the amp modelled. A JCM800 off the Vetta responds much better to volume control on your guitar, picking technique, and how hard you pick than say an Uber model. I left my midi switcher at home last band practice, and played songs I previously needed a channel switching amp with the JCM800 channel. worked as well or better than when I used a THD Univalve the same way.

3) Modelling amps don't sound like tube amps
SURE THEY DO! I had three guitarists come up to me after my gig friday asking about my amp because they loved the tone. One guy was ready to ditch his Marshall for one. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] What people don't realize is that there are very few tube amps that sound exactly like each other. Find me TWO marshall JCM800s that sound exactly the same. Ain't gonna happen. The Line 6 stuff can come as close at some settings as the amps they model... but they can't match one particular amp you're going to hear exactly.

4) The feel thing
Depends on the amp. I find it more comfortable to play on my Vetta than I did on a Bogner Ecstacy 1/2 stack cranked at the ampfest. I can get harmonic feedback better, and control the Line6 amp more easily. This doesn't mean one amp is better at that than the other... just that you adapt to what you're playing through. One thing I love about the old Mesa .22s and .50s w/EL84s is the FEEL they have... I may be spoiling myself with the .50 due early next week. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pete

[Sinistas]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I've got a Spider II 212, and it cuts through with ease (I max out at 4/4.5 on the volume). After gigging with it since November, however, I'm not sure if it's what I want, tone-wise. So I'm looking again. Woot.

[slo100]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Pete I am surprised to see you dismiss other peoples' opinions of amps, especially subjective elements such as tone and feel, as "BS."

I have yet to play a modeling amp (essentially a computer hooked up to a solid state power section) that can reproduce the dynamics, sensitivity, and character of a quality tube amp to my ears. This has only been my experience in comparison to tube amps I own. I have also listened closely in live settings to modelling amps with questionable results to my ears. When I test drive Vetta and Milleniums (or is that Millenia???) I test patches of amps I own. Of course the Blackface Fender settings on these things sound fine to me...I don't own one and it's Greek to me!

However, for amps I do own the story is different. The SLO settings on Line 6 amps "sound" like an SLO from a frequency response and listening perspective but do not duplicate the playing dynamics and do not live in live situations to the same degree of an SLO100. The plexi Marshall settings are not close to a 100W vintage Marshall cranked in terms of response and the famous "woody" tone. Computers just can't reproduce the physics of the relationship between the strings and speackers IMHO. It is really a physics thing, not an aural thing.

A note on volume. Volume is like horsepower; you don't have enough just add more. Volume and tone are distinct qualities of an amp. An amp that does not have a cutting tone needs more horsepower to punch through a mix. An amp with a nice bite and cut does not have to have a 120 watt power section, tube or SS.

People would be surprised with how little power you really need to play with a band. Neverminding the tube vs. SS debate (which is subjective and can never be conclusively resolved) I once went to a jam with a guy who had just bought a 5150 halfstack. I just took my 60W MarkIIC with a 1x12 cab. During the jam I was just above idle in volume and he was having to turn up the giant halfstack just to be heard. The Peavey was clearly a "louder" and more powerful amp. However, the 5150 was very dark tonewise compared to the Boogie which sliced and diced through cymbals, snares, and singers.

If you are relying on sheer power and loudness to make yourself heard I would suggest you'll always be the guy doing the sneaky shuffle constantly turning up your amp during jams, gigs, and rehearsals. No one likes that guy, especially soundmen!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As always YMMV.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

[ QUOTE ]
Pete I am surprised to see you dismiss other peoples' opinions of amps, especially subjective elements such as tone and feel, as "BS."


[/ QUOTE ]

That surprises you? Hehe... Well stated post by the way SLO.

Weird how a 50 watt Marshall can kill a 300 watt modeling amp at a show...

Yes, I've tried the Vetta II BTW, and still am not quite sold yet. Maybe the Vetta III will... They sound cool to play with, but I don't like them in a live band context.

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..




Hmmm... "Weird how a 50 watt Marshall can kill a 300 watt modeling amp at a show"...

That is exactly the type of response I can't understand.
IMHO, there is no way that a 50 watt Marshall can kill a Vetta 2 at a show.
The only way I can figure that you could make a statement like that is because you never actually played a Vetta 2 with a nice 4 x 12 cabinet live, nevermind using two 4 x 12 cabinets in true stereo stage left and right.
In sheer volume and presence and ability to cut through the mix there is no way that a 50 watt Marshall ANYTHING could out muscle a Vetta 2. I am not talking out of my A%$ on this. I have had 50 watt and 100 watt Marshalls Heck.. I have had just about everything. This is the point I don't understand. Sure, the dynamics of a tube amp, the feel, the wood tone, the harmonics, etc.. blah blah blah.. I agree.. I love tube amps. I play tube amps. I am talking strictly volume, presence and the ability to cut through any mix with any genre of music. Modeling amps are light years ahead of when they were first introduced. Even my Spider 2 2 x 12 150 watt combo can hang. To give you an example of how loud it is.. I would compare it in volume, presence and the ability to cut through the mix to a 5150 combo. I have had a few of those too. Thanks for all the killer opinions. Great info is being shared. Line 6 should take notes!! [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[Twisteramps]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Well... since I've gigged with tube amps since '88, owned 100 and 50 watt versions of everything from over 1/2 dozen mesas to over 1/2 dozen Marshalls, a VHT, a Rivera, vintage Fenders and actually gigged and recorded with tube AND modelling amps, I have experience based knowledge.

Now, if the shoe was on the other foot - if I only gigged with modelling amps, then you might have a point. Everything here is my opinion. What if I said that Plexi Marshalls don't sound good just because I heard one at a gig I didn't like?

I recently did some clips of my band live with the Vetta, where the amp cuts through fine. Also can record clips of the amp running very nice and clean, and then as the volume goes up on the guitar and picking technique changes the amp takes on a different character.

One other thing... I cringe when someone compares a bottom of the line modelling amp to a $3k Bogner. Would it be a valid comparison for me to do a shootout between a silvertone amp in case versus a vetta halfstack? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pete

[Chuckracer]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Great point, John. This IS cool. A while back we wouldn't have been able to have this discussion without resorting to insults and name calling!
I'm learning a lot!

[Robotechnology]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Basically the biggest difference that I noticed between my modeller and my tube preamps and tube combo in a live setting was that I had to pay more attention to the EQ settings on the modeller. I love my tube sounds and I love some of my modeller sounds (Johnson J-Station). My tube stuff will just cut thru if I leave their EQ controls flat (I would still have to tweak for tone of course). With the modeller I'd have to tweak the EQ and volume levels of different patches with my J-Station during full volume rehearsals to dial in a good combination of in your faceness and tone. It is more work with a modeller but, the tone and presence is there if you set it up right. The coolest part about them is when you only have to carry a guitar and bag that contains the modeller and a foot controller with you to rehearsal and small gigs. Sure beats the hell out of carrying my 100+ lb 2X12 cab and small rack setup [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Now, if the shoe was on the other foot - if I only gigged with modelling amps, then you might have a point. Everything here is my opinion. What if I said that Plexi Marshalls don't sound good just because I heard one at a gig I didn't like?
Hey Pete.. good points.. I never said a Plexi didn't sound good. The Plexi happens to be my favorite Marshall. I am talking strictly volume and presence. Not tone. Again... the major arguement regarding modling amps has always been "they get lost in the mix". That IMHO is an uniformed statement. It may have been true 6 years ago with the 1st gen modeling amps but it hasn't been true for at least the last few years.

[slo100]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Pete,

Given your vast playing, gigging, and recording experience and the multitude of equipment you have owned in the past and given the fact that after all that you feel Vetta amps size up to their tube counterparts...you have found the ideal amplifier for YOU.

The experience that I have had, the ears connected to my brain, and hands connected to my arms are not leaving me with the same impression about modeling amps that you are having. Do I need to list my guitar playing resume to qualify my opinion now? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

If I were inexperienced with any of this you'd be a person I'd listen to because of your experience and accompanying opinions and knowledge. More importantly you are a great player and that commands more respect than any list of gear or what you currently play.

I still feel like saying "a Vetta cuts" is an opinion because that is the way you hear it. I don't hear "cutting" as loudness or my ability to hear the sound coming from the amp. That is just me. As you say no two tube amps sound the same I say no two people hear things the same.

Saying "a Vetta has 1500 watts, surround sound, 8 million presents, 20G of memory, and a super-duper processor, cup holders and the kitchen sink" is imparting knowledge.

These are equally valid points but are mutually exclusive.

I should also say I have this exact same issue and experience with giant rack units. Same goes for tube
amps with a million pedals in line. This is not anti-modeling. My personal opinion is that more circuitry my guitar signal has to go through the more clutter is added to the natural guitar tone and makes it hard to hear the true tone of the guitar wihtin a live, recording, or practicing context. Hearing the fact that there is a guitar player in a mix is different to me than listening to the the various nuances of what a guitar player is doing. I simply feel the less the better in achieving that end and a good quality tube amp (with not much else) does that like no other technology I have found that pleases my ears.

I realize I am not the norm in that I seldomly play with effects of any kind. Guitar->Cord->SLO.

We are debating subjective things. But we do that a lot here don't we??? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Chuck, you just don't like modelers because if you had every sound known to man in one box, you would have to retire your bi-weekly guitar gear refreshment program!

[Chuckracer]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
No kiddin! FedEx would be out of business!!