Serious Line 6 discussion..

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Solid state amps have always been cursed with lesser projection than the tube amps. Hence the need for the common 300 watt Solid state stuff. Any idea what a 300 watt marshall tube amp would be like? hehe...

I have played the DSP stuff and am coming around slowly. But, I have seen a seriously large amount of live music, and even pros like Michael Romeo are lacking using these amps live. Yet, tube amps from the 70s are often sparkling through... I just call them as I hear them.

If you can't hear the difference, then count yourself as blessed. You can happily use a lightwieght "versatile" modeller. I can't. I don't like them and won't until they improve the technology. But, I've only been playing metal live in clubs for some 24 years...

I wish I did like them, it would save me a lot of grief.

[kmanick]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Hmmmmmmm. Interesting discussion. when I practice at home I run a Line 6 Flextone II plus and and a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 201 in stereo right next to each other. Both have 1 twelve inch Celestion and they compliment each other really well. What the Line 6 is lacking in sound the Marshall adds back and vice versa. It's an awesome sounding little practice setup. it sounds like a wall of sound coming at you at very low volume. I just stumbled on to this combo and it sounds killer. I have never tried to gig with a modeling amp though , I've always used Marshall heads and 4X12 half stacks.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I think the initial discussion was from Johns "volume and presence" in live settings with a modeling amp. I think we've settled that one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] What is to be debated is the warmth, responsiveness and feel of them. With anything subjective, there is no right or wrong, just what one feels works for them in any given musical situation.

Pete says his Vetta II works well for him live, I do not question that at all, I believe him. I've heard the live clips (granted not standing in the same room as the amp) although I think it sounds pretty good,I also found the tone to be a bit brittle and contain some harshness. That is just my opinion or what my ears hear (for Bret) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I like his homemade amp clip tones better but that's just me.

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I have played the DSP stuff and am coming around slowly. But, I have seen a seriously large amount of live music, and even pros like Michael Romeo are lacking using these amps live. Yet, tube amps from the 70s are often sparkling through... I just call them as I hear them.

Yes, but most of the time you are listening to that 70's tube amp after it has gone through a rack of digital processors and the mixing board.
When Joe Satriani demo'd the new all tube JSX amp he still used an effects processor for the demo.
I ask you... whats the difference between a tube amp running through a bank of effects processors and a modeling amp?

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

The initial signal is not just a partial "sample" of a real tube sound stored on a chip.

But yes, running through a crapload of DSP processors really screws up a good tube sound. I run mine through and notice the difference assuredly.

[Twisteramps]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Bret - I was just stating the point that I've used tube and modelling amps, and that I find a lot of the gripes against them are baseless. Now if someone tried a good modelling amp at a gig and didn't like it, great! But I do get a little touchy when I hear about how a 50 watt amp will drown one out.

I still love tube amps, I just don't see how some people can run the modelling stuff down when they haven't given it a chance or really tried it out. (5 minutes at guitar center does NOT count.) Hell, if any of you guys lived near me, I'd let you borrow my Vetta and screw around with it for a few days. Would be interesting to say the least, plus you could make me some new presets.

If my band gigs like I think we're going to, my next amp will likely be an SLO, if I can make enough $$$ with the giggage. I've never owned one, and I know if Bret and Ross and Chuck all three dig em, they must be cool. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pete

Oh, and regarding FX loops... I'd rather play through an amp with a good sounding loop and twice the DSP effects than a bad sounding loop with one DSP effect. Best FX loop on an amp I've ever had as far as transparent and able to stick dang near anything into it was a VHT.

[frankencat]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I bought a brand new AX2 combo with a Floorboard a few years ago and used it on gigs with my band. It was great sounding and reliable for the year that I used it. When Line 6 started making noise about dumping it I sold it for fear that I would be stuck with a boat anchor if it ever broke down. I felt is was a great sounding amp and I have also used it in the studio where is was pretty nice as well. It was better live though suprisingly. Bottom line, I liked mine alot but not more than my Soldanos, Bogners, or Budda that came after it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

These are a great deal if you can find one cheap though. I would buy another for the right priced. I guess that says something.

[jgcable]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Thanks to everybody for all the great knowledgable replies!! [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[bluebullet]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

i think they both have there place and are good for the situation you are in. if you can crank up loud enough to get the power tubes distorting then yeah tube amps are the way to go. if you are playing in your basement at 2am then the difference is almost nothing because all you are getting is preamp distortion. hell you might be better off with the line6 at least its still modeling some powertube breakup. the point im trying to make here is that it all depends on what you want to do at the time. alot of people go out and buy 50 or even 100 watt tube amps because everybody says they sound better and never get them past 2 and all they hear is preamp fizz

[mhalsey]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

[ QUOTE ]
alot of people go out and buy 50 or even 100 watt tube amps because everybody says they sound better and never get them past 2 and all they hear is preamp fizz

[/ QUOTE ]

Exact reason why I bought a SS amp. Fit my situation, as previously stated.

[VanOsbourne]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

I think no matter how you feel on this subject you would have to credit Line6 for putting out an incredible product. I think thier stuff is amazing.

[DRH]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Great discussion.

I've said this before but I think the modeling companies are missing the point and modeling TOO MUCH. As anything gets more complex it's harder to model accurately. Hell if you want to model several simple "components" if you will, you not only have to model each one accurately, but now you have to also model how they interact with each other. This is where it gets really wierd. It's gets much harder even if each individual component is easy to model. All of the little inaccuracies get magnified many times.

I think someone should focus on modeling the TUBES THEMSELVES. IMO, this would be easier to do than the entire amps. You get the fake tubes as accurate as possible and then build the amp around them. I think it would be much easier to model a Bogner by using accurate tube models and building a Bogner around them. Hell, you cound make whatever you want.

DRH

[Twisteramps]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Only problem with that is that the tubes themselves are just a tiny part of the total sound. A Fender Twin, SLO, Dual Rectifier, 5150, Fender Bassman, Marshall Plexi, JCM800, VHT, Rivera, etc all can use 6L6 family tubes. They sure don't sound alike... it's also the transformers, the gain stages, brand/type of parts, etc. Heck, if it was just tubes, nearly every amp built since the Marshall Plexi has the same preamp tubes (12ax7s)!

Pete

[RacerX]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

Hell, even my Mom's accordion amp "head" (1960s era Cordovox) is loaded with 12AX7s! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[DRH]

Re: Serious Line 6 discussion..

[ QUOTE ]
Only problem with that is that the tubes themselves are just a tiny part of the total sound. A Fender Twin, SLO, Dual Rectifier, 5150, Fender Bassman, Marshall Plexi, JCM800, VHT, Rivera, etc all can use 6L6 family tubes. They sure don't sound alike... it's also the transformers, the gain stages, brand/type of parts, etc. Heck, if it was just tubes, nearly every amp built since the Marshall Plexi has the same preamp tubes (12ax7s)!

Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Pete, that is exactly what I am getting at. If someone could model the 6L6s and the 12ax7s(which IMO would be easier than modeling the whole amp) I would think you could get much closer to say an SLO if you use a modelled tube and build the SLO circuitry around it than if you tried to model a SLO entirely. If you model the whole thing you would have many more errors cropping up.

I would rather justr model a tube than have to model capacitor and resistor types, take into account wires crossing, twisted together, solder connections, ckt board material, ptp wiring, etc, all of which will alter sound.

sometimes I think too much.
[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

DRH