PA Purchase Help

[mwm70]

I am looking for some advice on PA requirements (power, speaker size etc.) for a new cover band I'm playing in. It's a four piece; bass, guitar, drums and female singer. Playing anything from classic rock to modern pop. We are interested in buying something capable of running all instruments and vocals. We found a Behringer powered mixer 2x400 watts and Peavey PR15s (15/Horn)as mains and PR10s (10/Horn) as monitors. Is 400 watts enough for a small to medium sized bar gig and will the 15s handle kick drum and bass okay? Looking at running 80% vocals and 20% music through the PA. Any advice or past experience would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: PA Purchase Help

the more watts the better. 400 watts is what we use in my basements and it's not enough to get the vocals over the guitars. if i were you i would look for at least 4000 watts of power.

[Ace]

Re: PA Purchase Help

What he said. MORE POWER!! You're gonna need it. Your speakers should be fine with 15's, but 800W ain't gonna do jack $hit for you. If you have loud amps, you need a PA that can keep up with them. If you have quiet amps, you need to put them in the PA to keep on top of your drummer. You need more power my friend.

[markD]

Re: PA Purchase Help

i use a 2000 watt amp with my band and it barely gets the job done. once again, you'll need more power. that's the part that sucks about buying PA systems...conventional power wisdom is out the window, and so is any thought of buying something cheap and easy on the wallet!!

[Ace]

Re: PA Purchase Help

"Power wisdom". That has a cool ring to it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[lerxstcat]

Re: PA Purchase Help

No point buying Behringer unless you buy another powered mixer of a different brand for backup; they have a rep for failure.That wattage sounds low, but a classic rock band doesn't have to be nearly as loud as a metal band. A lot has to do with how hard your drummer plays, and how loud the club owners will want you playing. Some places want your volume low enough that the patrons can still talk to each other. Obviously you don't need as much power for that kind of club as you do for a metal club or a rowdy biker bar. Still, the more power the better so you don't have to push your system. That's how you get crappy sound and equipment failure. Buy the most watts with the most channels and biggest speakers and monitors you can afford. I think anything smaller than 12" 2-way monitors aren't going to be very audible onstage, and if you can't hear 'em well you're fukked. Also, what are you and the bass player playing through?If you're using a 1x12" 50-watt combo and he's using a 1x15" 200-watt bass combo, you'll need less wattage than if you're playing a full stack and he's playing a 1000-watt 1x18" and 4x10" rig. Are you micing the drums?That's a power-user and channel-user too. Lots of info and factors to consider.If you can't afford to buy the system you need, look into renting one. You'd be surprised, you can probably rent a decent system including soundman for about $250 to $400 a night, and he sets up and breaks down so you don't have the headache. If you're playing someplace small enough where that approaches your nightly take, then in that small a place you could probably get by with a small system like you're talking about, and mixing yourselves.

[Ace]

Re: PA Purchase Help

I agree with what lerx says. There are a lot of factors that affect how much wattage you need for that particular night, but headroom is never a bad thing with PA amplifiers. I say the bigger you can get, the better. With a good PA you'll sound better even at lower volumes.

[mwm70]

Re: PA Purchase Help

The drummer is volume conscience and has been gigging steadily for the last three years, he is not an animal. I am playing through a 300 watt head with a 1x15 cab. Guitar player is using a Mesa 1x12 combo (50 watt) running through a 2x12 cab. Music runs from Cream to Michelle Branch (chick singer). The guitar player and myself did the metal thing in the late 80's early 90's, we are no longer interested in blowing people away with our individual sound, looking for the band to sound whole and tight. Again this system is for small to medium sized gigs at local bars (150 or less people). Most of the larger clubs here have house systems so this system would be for the corner bar. We are a cover band, no unrealistic dreams of "making it" (did that in my youth), our focus is to have some fun and make a little bit of money at something we love to do. If 4000 watts is what you need to have to handle a small gig then things have drastically changed over the last 10 years. We are using an OLD kustom PA (130) watts at practice for the vocals and it cuts through just fine. The new system would hopefully allow us to add drums, guitar and bass to the PA mix to balance the sound. Thank you all for your input and advice.

[Ace]

Re: PA Purchase Help

Your drummer is not an animal!!! I'm sorry.

Sounds like you need about 2000W. Is your old Kustom PA soild state? Maybe you've found a magical freq that cuts through the band, see if you can EQ it that way when you're live and you can squeeze out some prescence. Damn, I'm hung over, I'll think more about this later.

[hammer84]

Re: PA Purchase Help

No behringer boards !!! I have one for my practice place and it has lost 3 channels and the L main over the last year and is only seldom moved.

I run sound for my band and many bands in the area. I can help you spec a PA or serveral to choose from, just PM me.

Wattage by its self is not a good litmus test. It depends on how many speakers, bi-amped or tri-amped, and what type of sub you are going to use, if any.

I would look to go 3 way for your speakers. It is amazing how the vocals just jump out at you with a good 3-way system. That would also help you avoid needing subs.

PM is you need more specifics.

[nor]

Re: PA Purchase Help

That old Kustom may be just fine for vocals at practice, but in a room with 30 to 300 noisy 'Meat Resistors'
PLUS
diffusing the energy between the entire band
PLUS
dealing with whatever quality juice the club runs to the stage
EQUALS
the dreaded 'band in a pillow with lots of feedback' syndrome.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

You need...
A 3-way system, and a bare minimum of...
Low: 400w per side
Med: 200w per side
High: 150w per side

Buying an underpowered system is like throwing your dough down a hole - a hole that mocks and haunts you every time you get on stage.

Carvin makes decent prepackaged systems, and the Mackie stuff is pretty plug-n-play.

Behringer = absolute crap, i.e crappy sound on the chance it actually powers up.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[slo100]

Re: PA Purchase Help

It is hard to say how many "watts" will do the job in a particular case.

My band has a serious hitter for a drummer, I play a 100W half-stack, and our bass player runs a 2x15" rig. We have a 1x15H Yamaha mains and 1x18" Yamaha subs. We have a Mackie 800i that runs the mains...it puts out 175W/side @ 8 ohms. We have a 20 year old Crown DC300 that also puts out 175W/side @ 8 ohms. This system is ridiculously loud and works well even outdoors.

I run the PA and set the crossover at about 200Hz or so which keeps the mains super efficient (as they don't have to re-produce low end). The subs take care of the bottom range. I have found this to be just fine for us and we've never been in need of more volume.

I think it is valueable to go see other live bands and spy on their rigs to see what they are running and you can get a feel for what kind of gear yields what level of performance.

Another thing to consider is watts don't necessarily equate to the best way to measure relative loudness and watts of power and loudness to one amp may not be the same for another amp. I'll put my old DC300 with 175/side up against most new amps of double that wattage. This thing has filter caps as big as automotive oil filters and a transformer that must weight 20 pounds all by itself.

Building and running a PA is very hard and really only comes with experience. Maybe other guys in bands here can spec out what they are running to give you more ideas.

Ours is:

Mackie 1604VLZ 16 channel board
Alesis Midiverb4
2x Alesis 3630 stereo compressors
Alesis stereo EQ
Behringer Stereo 2 way Crossover

Mackie 800i Power Amp
Crown DC300 Power Amp

2x 1-15H powered monitors
2x 1-15H mains
2x 1-18 subs

16x4 Whirlwind Snake

It is an easy rig to set up, run, and troubleshoot quickly if something goes wrong. It has served us well in many scenarios indoor and outdoor.

Great topic!
Bret

[Big D]

Re: PA Purchase Help

Our 4 piece cover band has pretty loud stage volume but we still need 3 Carvin 2000 watt amps for the medium sized clubs we play at.

We run four 18" cabs and four cabs with two 15's and horns. We've been real happy with Carvin amps and speakers, great prices and decent quality.

[mwm70]

Re: PA Purchase Help

Thanks for all your input and help. We are going to check out some of the better bands in the area and find out what they use.
I have heard some bad things about Behringer and others I have talked too swear by them. I know about the ethics issues (them blatantly stealing other designs) but I have also heard that their quality control and customer service have gotten much better. I own their 300 watt bass head and it has worked well for me over the 8 months. The more I research this the more confused it becomes.
Thanks again for all your input and recommendations.