The Downfall of Line 6?

[Tetsuo]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

Actually the AX2 was the flagship Combo when they first came out but to some extent you are correct indeed perception has a huge part to do with it

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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And if you bother to read that article I posted, it explains quite well the perceived difference between distorted solid state and tube technology.

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The problem with the argument presented there is that it's comparing a non-modeling solid state amp to a pure tube amp. Any halfway decent model of a tube amp will produce harmonic frequencies in almost idential proportion to the tube amp its attempting to model. Hence the allegedly missing / attenuated harmonics will already be present in the signal of a modeling amp when said signal passes from the modeling section to the power amp section. The idea that solid state amps don't produce harmonic overtones in the same proportion as tube amps may well be true but to apply that argument to modeling amps you have to completely ignore the fact that the modeling section's entire job is to produce those very same harmonics.


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I've heard bands using Vettas that were so loud they were really hard on the ears, yet you weren't hearing it right, like it wasn't cutting through. I'm sure the DBs were there, they just weren't gettiung through the mix so well.

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Oh c'mon, you know as well as I do that this is an EQ problem not an amp problem. Just use a parametric EQ to scoop all of the mids our of your super-duper boutique amp and then turn it up twice as loud as you usually play and you'll have the exact same problem.

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I won't mention too much about that laughable modular phone like cabling on the Line 6 controller.

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God forbid they use industry-standard cabling.

[ranalli]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

The truth of the matter is that there is no downfall of Line6 and nor will there ever be as long as their prices are reasonable in the eyes of the consumer.

I think it's important to realize that amateurs, pro, and many in between have adopted these products graciously and their popularity has only increased as time goes on.

With that being said, I do believe the Line6 amps can push air just like a real amp...it has speakers, it pushes air. It has volume, it pushes air.

Let's not confuse that with it feeling exactly like a tube amp...cause even as a Line6 lover I'll say that it doesn't quite "feel" exactly like a tube amp for lack of a better term...but that's not the same as not being able to push air...it's just a feel or kickback type thing that tubes seem to have.

As far as the Line6 stuff being throw-away...well that's an unfortunate side effect of their business model. Let's say you buy a regular tube amp like a 5150 or something. All amps lose value as soon as they become used but once they level off they seem to stay in a close range of price for the most part. Peavey may come out with new and arguably better amps but the value usually stays the around the same since the newer amps may offer different tone but not necessarily better tone. Case and point is the transition from JCM800 series amps to the newer DSL/TSLs....both are still popular because people like the tones of both.

But Line6 on the other hand usually offers new amps as "better" sounding. Well they don't say that but it's been assumed that the newer stuff is more realistic sounding. So with the new stuff almost always being better the older stuff drops in value bigtime over a shorter period of time or whenever a new model comes out. This is why some people would think of Line6 stuff as throw-away.

For maintenance though, from my experience the Line6 stuff is great if you have a service place near you. In my old band my other guitarist had a Flextone and it got wet and crapped out. The circuit board was completely fried looked like and the whole inside looks like a computer any way for the most part. The fix was SIMPLE!!! The just slid the old circuit board out, and slid the new one in....DONE!!!

Took about 30 seconds...no soldering or nothing. Even the presets were saved.

[ranalli]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

Oh, and I think that most problems with cutting through on a modeling amp are user error. Unless you're playing a gig with a Spider you should have no problems cutting through if you dial it in right. However, keep in mind that the Line6 stuff is a tweakers toy in the sense that you have to do some good experimentation dialing it in to get it right. It's not like a JCM800 where you can pretty much set it and forget it.

[hippietim]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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I won't mention too much about that laughable modular phone like cabling on the Line 6 controller. Cool when your Michael Romeo and have a few free ones laying around to take up slack, but a basic working musician would be having a cry when it was going intermittent.

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Good thing you don't want to mention it.

Because a working musician would much rather have something like the Line 6 solution instead of some obscure industrial goofball connector like I've seen on some high-end amps. You'll never find that cable anywhere.

However, you can walk into Radio Shack, Best Buy, or any other electronics/computer store (and most music stores) and pick up an industry standard ethernet cable for $10-20 and your Line 6 gear will be happy again.

[Twisteramps]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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When a reasonably small company makes a VERY complex amp with proprietary chips, you can kiss the amp goodbye if one of those chips fail and the chips aren't available either because the company is gone, or they just don't support that particular tech any more.

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Which Line6 amps (which have been in production since what, mid 90s?) aren't supported/fixable?


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Even Rocktron isn't supporting a bunch of stuff that you can't find chips for now. ADA flangers and MP-1 are notorious for being useless when they fail and the DSP processor is poofed.

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This is the Line6 Rocktron, the Line6 MP1, etc? Could say the same thing about vintage effects too, or boutique gear. I'm curious as to which Line6 amps are affected. The sharc chips that they use aren't propietary to line 6 - other companies use them too. The FLASH programming is... but guess what? I have my Vetta settings'stored' on my PC as a sysex file.

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Your Soldano or (whatever tube amp) fries something, you can source any part in it from anywhere.

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Anywhere, eh? Find me a set of Soldano SLO transformers. Oh yeah, they are proprietary and ONLY available from Soldano. Even the Hot Rod series transformers are custom made - and Mercury won't sell a guy off the street a set. I doubt they would sell ANYONE but Soldano a set of the custom winds they developed with Soldano.

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And if you bother to read that article I posted, it explains quite well the perceived difference between distorted solid state and tube technology.

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It's highly enjoyable when someone reads something and then posts a link - that sure beats actually using the gear, right?

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I've heard bands using Vettas that were so loud they were really hard on the ears, yet you weren't hearing it right, like it wasn't cutting through. I'm sure the DBs were there, they just weren't gettiung through the mix so well.

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I've heard the same with all toob amps that have guys on the JCF salivating over their rarity/cork sniff appeal. ANY amp, tube or not, can be set up to sound like crap and not cut. Heck, I've had a great tone and had a sound guy kill me through the PA when I was using boutiquey tube amps live.

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Michael Romeo is one I've heard with just that problem. He sounded great live with his MESA rectos (though I'm not a fan of them) and with his Vettas, he was considerably less in your face with them. Even his bass player was agreeing with me when we talked about it and wanted him to use the MESAs again. I won't mention too much about that laughable modular phone like cabling on the Line 6 controller. Cool when your Michael Romeo and have a few free ones laying around to take up slack, but a basic working musician would be having a cry when it was going intermittent.

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Few points to make on this paragraph...

1) Did you hear him through the same PA at the same venue at the same time (or within a reasonable amount of time) with the boogie versus the vetta? I doubt it. I've never heard a band play the same place twice and get the exact same killer tone each time WITH THE SAME AMPS. You're right, it was the Vetta, sure as heck couldn't have been the PA, bad cab mic technique, or even a problem with the sound guys or even his settings. It has to be the amp, right?

Regarding the thin wire connection for the pedalboard - That's Cat5. You can get that stuff damn near anywhere, it's jack size is RJ-45. It's NOT phone cord, that's RJ11 and has fewer connectors. Want to hear about someone being screwed? Try getting a Peavey or VHT footswitch wire munged up - especially the VHT. You are screwed then - I could go to a Radio Shack or any decent electronics store or Best Buy or Comp USA and replace the Vetta cable, no problem. Where would you buy a replacement VHT footswitch cable?

Oh, you might know that cable by it's other term - ethernet cable. Yep, any ethernet cable is going to work for the Vetta. And that 'laughably' thin cable is used WORLDWIDE for more demanding data connections than you'll ever know. It's also very cheap and again, easy to find.


Oh, and also the Vetta can use a regular midi footswitch also, which is what I use. And yes, it uses one of those midi cables, which are nearly as hard to find as those 'hard to find' Cat5 cables listed.

I formed my opinions from facts and using the gear. You found a website article that doesn't address many issues and you have some hearsay.

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Sorry, just not a fan, and for good reason.

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Sure, but your good reason is probably as good as your 'knowledge' of the things in this post. Good reason, eh?

[toejam]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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Michael Romeo is one I've heard with just that problem. He sounded great live with his MESA rectos (though I'm not a fan of them) and with his Vettas, he was considerably less in your face with them.

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I don't know about those, but when I took lessons from Mike in the mid to late '80s, I had a Gorilla Tube Cruncher... HE sounded amazing through it! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

wow, line 6 has its place and it is only going to get better as technology improves.

having said that I'm still a tube man 100%. I can only relate to them with my experience and what my ears hear with them and my tube amps. It doesn't make me an expert and grant me the right to go around and wave the flag for tube amps, ss or a modeler to convert and conquer the masses to use what I use [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Do I think Pete sounds great playing through a Vetta, damn right I do. Do I think he would probably sound better live with a tube amp? You bet your ass I do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I haven't had the chance to hear him live (meaning I'm at the gig) so I can only base it off recordings. I would have to be in the same room to say for sure, I have a good idea on what I would think sound better. I do see some irony in the Vetta is the bomb live and the Soldano is a recorder amp [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Its just two different camps and looks on things, no right or no wrong. The bottom line folks is to use what YOUR ears like to hear and don't put so much merit in what you read in online forums (not this one of course cause there are fuggers here that know their shiot well) or even clips of amps.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

Pete, cap on my knowledge, whatever. But, I've heard your amps, and my idea of tone truly isn't what you think is good tone by any means. I could certainly see why you went Vetta, much easier than getting a good tube sound. I know that isn't always easy. Glad you're the tube guru here, oh wait, the tube guru that went to a modeller to get a good sound. Sorry, I forgot.

For what it's worth (not much I see), I'll figure that most guys that play guitar don't know that the cable is a cat5 cable. Including Mike Romeo who complained about them and the jack. Yep, used everywhere. In computers that sit still and don't get beat to death on stages every night. Glad it is at least easily obtainable. I figured they changed something slightly so they weren't compatable. Actually easier to get than the MIDI cables I use. Thanks for schoolin me! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Yep, and easy to fix, BY LINE 6 SERVICE who has to put a new board in it! But not by some service guy in hicktown usa in time to do your gig when your amp poofs.

Ya know, whatever dude. I know what these things sound like compared to a good tube amp. They're actually cool and very versatile but they still just don't truly compare.

And wow, all the time you took tearing my post apart and addressing every issue (comendable), you would think you could have something more useful to do than school an un-knowledgeable hack like myself(thanks so much BTW), like maybe programming your Vetta, hehe.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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Yep, used everywhere. In computers that sit still and don't get beat to death on stages every night.

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We used to use lots of it in military vehicles back when I worked on C4I systems. But I'm sure a foot controller and amp sitting motionless on a stage take a far worse beating than does a military vehicle.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

I dunno, I'm just clumsy and trip over them and tear connectors apart, what can I say.

[Ace]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

Having been in both military vehicles and onstage for years I can say that neither is a place I would trust a normal cat5 cable. There is no such thing as "motionless on a stage".

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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I dunno, I'm just clumsy and trip over them and tear connectors apart, what can I say.

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A roll of duct tape will do wonders for this problem.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

Yeah, but it would have to be around my feet to really help. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[hippietim]

Re: The Downfall of Line 6?

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Yep, and easy to fix, BY LINE 6 SERVICE who has to put a new board in it! But not by some service guy in hicktown usa in time to do your gig when your amp poofs.

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This is true. Ye Ole Hicktown USA service guy probably can't service your Vetta. I'll bet you he can't service your Soldano either. Ever look in one of those? It has a board too. If hickboy has never serviced a Soldano are ya really going to have your SLO be his maiden voyage? You did bring your schematics didn't you? I'll bet hickboy can't even service my all-tube Fender Pro Junior which also has a couple PCBs.

Don't kid yourself on serviceability of modern tube amps. They aren't as trivial as some folks would have you believe.