Announcement

**jgcable** · 01-17-2005, 08:35 AM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

Here is my take on Mesa vs Marshall in a band setting. I am qualified to answer this because I have been fighting this battle since the late 80's.
I will keep it as simple as possible and please fellow JCF'rs don't flame me too much.
Mesa Boogies and Marshalls do NOT mix well in a band setting. I consider them like Chihuahua's. They work best with their own kind. Mesa Boogies are outstanding in a 1 guitar setting or if both guitarists use them. Marshalls are exactly the same way. When you mix them the Boogie vanishes from the mix everytime. Why? My thoughts are that the mid and lower frequencies of the Boogies (DC's, Rectifiers etc..)are swallowed up by the drums and bass but if the Boogie is loud enough it can overcome its lack of presence in these frequencies. This leaves you with just the higher frequencies of which the Boogies are not strong in unless it is loud and alone. Marshall's on the other hand excel in the frequencies that are not being taken up by the bass and drums. This is the reason they cut through so easily in a band setting and don't need to be nearly as loud to be heard. How do I know this? For many years, my bandmate used a Dual Rectifier and I used a Marshall JCM800. The band set up was 2 lead guitar players but I was also the lead singer. On a few songs I would only sing. His Dual Rectifier sounded incredible because since he was the only one playing guitar he would turn it up. As soon as I kicked in my Marshall he would literally vanish from the mix. On may gigs I would use a 2 x 12 and he would use a 4 x 12 and I would still be heard over him at a lower overall volume. Now he owns a Vetta 2 and could you guess what model settings he uses? Marshall Jubilee's, 5150's, and Soldano's. All Marshall based. They all cut through like a knife. He still has a Mesa Dual Rectifier but he only uses it for his solo gigs. He calls my Marshall #2210 the "Band-away amp" because it cuts through so well I have to be careful of the settings. Try an outboard EQ and boost the mids. My opinion is that if you want your Boogies to cut through like a Marshall you will need to make it sound like one. This means boosting the mids bigtime.

**VulfgangPfuck** · 01-17-2005, 11:02 AM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

I agree....I've been a die-hard Mesa user now for a while also. I use the Dual Recs, but I've never had a problem cutting through with my tone. I also used a compressor/gate/limiter...and 31 band EQ and that did help immensely. I couldn't get the same exact tone without that combo of outboard gear.

Mids are key when trying to cut through in a live situation. Give your amp as much mid as you can without it "quacking" on you. The Mesa "darkness" is already there...inherent to the amp...so EQ your tone accordingly.
Give it only enough highs to where it won't start feeding back on you uncontrollably also.

Your gain is also a big factor....try not to saturate your signal with too much gain, or you will screech uncontrollably as well. Just give it enough to where it will ring nicely with enough sustain.

**Dreamland_Rebel** · 01-17-2005, 11:25 AM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

use your lead channel and set the gain at max, turn the treble up to 9, mid on 5, bass on 2-3, presence 0 (off) reverb 0-3, master 3. set the graphic flat on 0 for all faders. start there. (i just leave it off with the DC series, i think its voiced rather nice without it) and then you may use the output as your volume control.

turning the presence off is the key to this amp. when its off you can run the gain as high as you want and it won't mud up or lose definition.

if you want more high end - use the graphic eq. and bring the high slider up.

do not use the presence knob!!!!!!!!!! it is the soul killer of good "Band" tone for this amp.

**Dreamland_Rebel** · 01-17-2005, 11:32 AM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

and i have to dissagree. i think mesa's and marshalls can sound great together. you just have to tweak them right.

**jgcable** · 01-17-2005, 12:08 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

[ QUOTE ]
and i have to dissagree. i think mesa's and marshalls can sound great together. you just have to tweak them right.

[/ QUOTE ]

We never had any luck mixing Marshall and Mesa but I am sure there must be a way.
Hey Reb, how should I run the presence and the master volume on my Marshall JCM800 #2210? Your posted settings are always really good. Thanks in advance.

**jwoods986** · 01-17-2005, 12:26 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

John, I had the total opposite experience. I have a Single Recto head running through just a Mesa 1x12 cab. Last year I was in a band and the other guitarist had a Marshall half-stack. I'm not sure of the model but I know it was a 50-watt tube head (maybe a JCM series) through a 4x12 cab. I always cut through a lot better than him. He did have about 10-12 pedals in front of his amp and I was pretty much straight, so maybe that was it. But I have to disagree that Mesas can't cut through in a band.

**Shawn Lutz** · 01-17-2005, 01:03 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

I would think you should be able to mix adequately enough within the band mix. What speakers are you using? The DC-5 is a tweak happy amp and pretty sensitive, a turn here and a turn there can go from sweet to crap real quick. I say leave the 5-band EQ on, increase the presence, decrease the mid, increase the treble a little and back off the gain a notch.

If that doesn't work, use the ch1 pull/brite gain and slam it with a Boss SD-1 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The clean ch on the DC-5 sound more Marshally than Boogie to me when the mids are past 5, gain pulled and dimed and a SD-1 on. Great classic metal tone.

The higher end brittleness on Marshalls that people often complain about (when playing alone) is what helps make it stand out and cut through the mix live.

**Fragle** · 01-17-2005, 01:33 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

well, thanks so far for your input. i won't be playing LOUD until saturday (=rehearsal), so i can't comment on most of your advice. i just finished jamming at moderate volume, though (moderate volume means not ear splitting rehearsal/live loud, but loud enough to make the neighbours happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ).

dreamland rebel: well, normally i keep the presence quite high, at around 7-8, as it seems to open up the sound and give it a little more "edge". anyways, i just tried your settings out and without the eq i didn't think they sounded that good. waaaay too much gain (i hardly turn the gain past 5 because it has a LOT of gain imo). anyways, i tweaked them a little bit, and look what i came up with. they look pretty extreme, though.

(lead channel). gain 8, treble 9, mid 5, bass 3, presence 0, reverb 2, master 3
eq: pretty much everything almost all the way up, except the 6600hz which is set flat, and the 750 which is in the middle between the upper and the middle lines.
sounds like shit at bedroom volume, but the louder i got the better did it sound, i was surprised. i'll definitely check it out on saturday. actually it reminded me quite a lot of widow-angel sin [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

by the way, one off-topic question: usually i'm running the 4ohm out into the 4 ohm in of my cab. but what about running the 8 ohm out into the 16ohm in? i checked the manual and it says it's a safe mismatch. but the question is if it puts more stress on the tubes/trannys? actually, i dont think so, as the manual says the amplifier is running a bit cooler than normal...which means there's less stress on the amp, right?

greets
fragle

**Dreamland_Rebel** · 01-17-2005, 01:39 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

the 1x12 is your problem right there jwoods. you need a closed back 2x12 at least or a 4x12 to compete or mix well.

i'll trade presence for volume, gain, and mids ANY DAY!!!

presence and no mids sounds great when playing by yourself, but SUCK ASS with the full band!

thats the problem he's having. all the white noise is washing out his sound when playing with the band and the other dudes marshall.

i totaly don't agree tone wize with you shawn. presence is bad mmmkay.

i'd turn it completely off on any 6l6 or el34 based amp. period!!! make up for with gain and volume. push those speakers and powertubes properly thats how you get your brightness back while maintaining clarity at the same time.

my band used a DC-10 head live for my lead guitarist. i set his knobs at
g=10
t=9 (mesa's treb knobs are almost like a gain)
b=2-3
m=5
rev=3 (if you like reverb in your sound)
pres=0
master=3
graphic off
output 1.3-4 untill it sounds sweet. for the playing enviroment.

if you want more brightness and/or more bass (chug)use the graphic and bring the outer sliders up to taste - if you want to adjust the next inner set, go for it, but keep them closer to flat. (the graphic is maily to make up for the type of wires they wire the tone pots with. kinda chops the ultra highs and lows a bit.)

for any marshall tube head. i would go
gain=10
bass=10
mid=10
treb=0
pres=0
pre or vol=10

master=turn it up till it sounds sweet!
(you can shape your sound by playing with pre vs. master if your amp is so equipped.

i've found these setting to cut through the best wile still sounding properly bright and maintaining clarity all the way up.

remember that these are for full band environments not bedroom jams.

set them up this way with your band and then try adding presence (or with the marshalls treb and pres)
it will sound like you are throwing a blanket over you amp.
everything will just wash right out.

presence is bad mmkay. [img]/images/graemlins/nono.gif[/img]

**Dreamland_Rebel** · 01-17-2005, 01:43 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

the pres seems to open up the sound when you play by yourself, but just blankets it with the full band.

**jgcable** · 01-17-2005, 02:14 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

[ QUOTE ]
the pres seems to open up the sound when you play by yourself, but just blankets it with the full band.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reb, do you know why? Also, wouldn't diming out the treble be basically the same as having both the treble and the presence around 5? I find that the presence control adds a high end "crunch or sizzle" to the tone. Why would it be different in a live band setting? Interesting topic for sure.

**jwoods986** · 01-17-2005, 02:30 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

[ QUOTE ]
the 1x12 is your problem right there jwoods. you need a closed back 2x12 at least or a 4x12 to compete or mix well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you read my post wrong, Dreamland. I had no problem cutting through with my 1x12 while the other guitarist with his Marshall half-stack would be buried in the mix - the opposite of what happened with jgcable and his guitarist.

**jgcable** · 01-17-2005, 03:05 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the 1x12 is your problem right there jwoods. you need a closed back 2x12 at least or a 4x12 to compete or mix well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you read my post wrong, Dreamland. I had no problem cutting through with my 1x12 while the other guitarist with his Marshall half-stack would be buried in the mix - the opposite of what happened with jgcable and his guitarist.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason you blew out the Marshall player was because he had 10 pedals in front of his amp and was probably using a distortion pedal as opposed to the JCM distortion. Neither of us used outboard distortion pedals. The Mesa player used nothing but a Morley wah and a noise gate along with a GE7 for solo boost in the loop. I used a delay, chorus and a wah with a DOD 250 in the loop for solo boost.

**Dreamland_Rebel** · 01-17-2005, 03:14 PM

Re: mesa users, need advice!

oh, yeah. sorry dude. trying to service peoples insurance policies and post here at the same time, hehheh.

jgcable, with marshall's yes, older mesa's no. it all has to do with the perammaters the tone controls are voiced for.

marshalls have so much highs in the mid tone control. more than enough! older mesa's are an entirely different beast.

diming out the treb on mesa's is basically allowing as much singal as possible travel to the rest of the signal chain. and there is tones of midrange in there. the mid knob after 5 or 12 o'clock turns into a gain saturation rather than adding more mid frequencies. and the bass is a bit fubbly and tends to work better at low volume while bringing up the low slider on the graphic to give a more usible bass "chug".

one thing you can do with the mesa's is not run the gain so high, but dime out the mid knob for more saturation.

but the pres. is just too washy.
why?

drums and bass naturally pruduce lots of high end. guitars do not.

so jamming by yourself you want that high end to sound more full to your ears. but when the drummers ripping that hi hat and crashes and the bass is chugging along. your high end turns into white noise because it is cancelled out by the drums/cymbols and bass.

and especially with 2 guitars. same kind of concept as using less gain with 2 guitars. but its really the high end that washes it out more than the gain. you can have both guitars full on with gain as long as you bring the ultra high end out. and it will maintain clarity.

have both guitarist turn off the pres and jam with the band, then have them both turn it back up and you'll notice all your clarity has gone out the window and it will just be a big wash of white noise.

Announcement

mesa users, need advice!

mesa users, need advice!

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment