Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

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Also not all JCM800's are created equal, even within the same model numbers. If you get a good one you should hang to it.

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No doubt....

[toejam]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

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it also has alot more gain but in order for marshall to do this they had to use Diode clipping in the circuit for the extra gain.

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And that's bad why? I don't understand how some people love putting pedals with said diodes in front of their amps, but feel it's unacceptable for it to be in an amp. [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

Well, the diodes in the amp aren't quite as versatile as having a pedal. You can adjust the pedal, swap pedals, you can even forget to buy batteries for the pedal on the night of a show, and then trip over them for added value. It's really all the difference

[jgcable]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

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Well, the diodes in the amp aren't quite as versatile as having a pedal. You can adjust the pedal, swap pedals, you can even forget to buy batteries for the pedal on the night of a show, and then trip over them for added value. It's really all the difference

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+1 but you gotta love the 2210. What a high gain monster. Its like having a modded JCM800. Just plug in and shred.

[siggy14]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

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it also has alot more gain but in order for marshall to do this they had to use Diode clipping in the circuit for the extra gain.

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And that's bad why? I don't understand how some people love putting pedals with said diodes in front of their amps, but feel it's unacceptable for it to be in an amp. [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

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The two differences is this, most people that put a pedal in front of there amps just jack the level up but do not use the pedels built in distortion. so when you put a pedal in front of the amp with the level jacked you are forcing the tubes into overdrive creating natural tube distortion. When you have diodes in a circuit they are creating a solid state distortion and not forcing the tubes to distort.

[jgcable]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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it also has alot more gain but in order for marshall to do this they had to use Diode clipping in the circuit for the extra gain.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that's bad why? I don't understand how some people love putting pedals with said diodes in front of their amps, but feel it's unacceptable for it to be in an amp. [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

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The two differences is this, most people that put a pedal in front of there amps just jack the level up but do not use the pedels built in distortion. so when you put a pedal in front of the amp with the level jacked you are forcing the tubes into overdrive creating natural tube distortion. When you have diodes in a circuit they are creating a solid state distortion and not forcing the tubes to distort.

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Correct... and there is a common fundamental problem with doing that.
The problem is that you have to turn that tube amp up EXTREMELY loud in order to get that natural tube distortion. And when I say EXTREMELY, I am not F'n around. I am talking about a volume level that is entirely too loud for 90% of average gigs or band practices. Lots of guys use hotplates for this reason. That is the beauty of the #2210. It sounds great at any volume. A pedal in front of a 2203 or 2204 will do the same thing as a stock #2210 providing the majority of the distortion is coming from the pedal.
I like them both but IMHO, if you don't want to rely on a pedal for your distortion, the #2210 is a great choice.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

there are 2 different 2210 models.

"the later one has higher gain than the earlier one" -anthony at voodoo amps

[siggy14]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it also has alot more gain but in order for marshall to do this they had to use Diode clipping in the circuit for the extra gain.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that's bad why? I don't understand how some people love putting pedals with said diodes in front of their amps, but feel it's unacceptable for it to be in an amp. [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The two differences is this, most people that put a pedal in front of there amps just jack the level up but do not use the pedels built in distortion. so when you put a pedal in front of the amp with the level jacked you are forcing the tubes into overdrive creating natural tube distortion. When you have diodes in a circuit they are creating a solid state distortion and not forcing the tubes to distort.

[/ QUOTE ]
Correct... and there is a common fundamental problem with doing that.
The problem is that you have to turn that tube amp up EXTREMELY loud in order to get that natural tube distortion. And when I say EXTREMELY, I am not F'n around. I am talking about a volume level that is entirely too loud for 90% of average gigs or band practices. Lots of guys use hotplates for this reason. That is the beauty of the #2210. It sounds great at any volume. A pedal in front of a 2203 or 2204 will do the same thing as a stock #2210 providing the majority of the distortion is coming from the pedal.
I like them both but IMHO, if you don't want to rely on a pedal for your distortion, the #2210 is a great choice.

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Your statement is part correct, you are mistaking preamp distortion and output tube distortion. In order to get the output tubes to distort you need to crank the amp, this is the same for both the 2203 and the 2210. However the 2210 has diodes built in the preamp section which is giving you more preamp gain. Now when you take a pedal and put it in front of a 2203 you are forcing the Preamp tubes to distort which is giving you more preamp distortion, the distortion is not coming from the pedal, but is a result of the pedals high level. The difference being it is that the 2203 is giving all naturall preamp tube distortion and not diode clipping distortion like in the 2210. Take it you can put a pedal in front of a 2210 and get more disortion by forcing those preamp tubes to distort more too, but when it comes down to it half the distortion in a 2210 is created with solid state diodes. I am not saying this is a bad thing, one of my favorite tones i heard was satch live back in the day, he was running a DS-1 (using the DS-1 distortion) into a 6100, the output tubes warm up the signal which does alot for the tone. Most peoples complaint about solid state amps is they get brittle as you turn them up, by having a tube output section you eliminate this issue. Sometimes i prefer a solid state preamp over a tube preamp, just make sure i have a great tube power section and i am in heaven.

[jgcable]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

Agree, but it takes mucho volume to get the preamp tubes in a 2203 or 2204 singing. That volume is usually way to frikkin loud. That is why most use a pedal in front of both of them. You can lower the volume from the pedal but increase the gain (preamp tube distortion) at the same time. The diodes in the 2210 do basically the same thing.

[PowerTube]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

I have a 2210, also. Since I can't dime it, I've never even heard what it'll do at max volume. It's a bit scary to think about. I use a combination of Metal Zone and GE-7 EQ to get my sound on it when I'm not running the POD across it.

[siggy14]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

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Agree, but it takes mucho volume to get the preamp tubes in a 2203 or 2204 singing. That volume is usually way to frikkin loud. That is why most use a pedal in front of both of them. You can lower the volume from the pedal but increase the gain (preamp tube distortion) at the same time. The diodes in the 2210 do basically the same thing.

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Actually volume has nothing to do with preamp tubes at all, it is line level and how hard you drive them. That is how a pedal makes them distort more, by putting the level of the overdrive pedal up you are increasing the line level alot hotter then the pickups normal level which is causing those preamp tubes to distort. In a 2210 the diodes do not increase the level of the preamp tubes, the diodes actually clip creating there own distortion. Volume only effects output tubes and the distortion they create.

[jgcable]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

Yea but the effect is the same. The gain control on a 2203/2204 needs to be cranked and volume control needs to be really high to get sufficient metal distortion and gain if you aren't using a preamp or distortion pedal.
Slamming the preamp tubes with a preamp pedal or distortion pedal is the most common solution to the lack of low level gain on a 2203/2204. From what I have read, on the 2210 and my Carvin MTS3200, clipping diodes between the preamp tubes mess with the top and bottom signal and somehow increase the gain and in a sense trick the preamp tubes into clipping or multiplies the clipping. Something like that... Putting a pedal in front of the amp is basically the same principle. In either case, there are many great Marshall amps. The 2203, 2204 and 2210 are great JCM800's.

[siggy14]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Yea but the effect is the same. The gain control on a 2203/2204 needs to be cranked and volume control needs to be really high to get sufficient metal distortion and gain if you aren't using a preamp or distortion pedal.
Slamming the preamp tubes with a preamp pedal or distortion pedal is the most common solution to the lack of low level gain on a 2203/2204. From what I have read, on the 2210 and my Carvin MTS3200, clipping diodes between the preamp tubes mess with the top and bottom signal and somehow increase the gain and in a sense trick the preamp tubes into clipping or multiplies the clipping. Something like that... Putting a pedal in front of the amp is basically the same principle. In either case, there are many great Marshall amps. The 2203, 2204 and 2210 are great JCM800's.

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From my understanding the diodes actually make distortion and do not force the preamps to get distorted. Any one else want to chime in for another opinion!

[jgcable]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

Thanks for all the reponses Siggy. Its nice to talk to somebody who has knowledge to share.

[toejam]

Re: Just bought a jcm 800!!!!

Great responses! Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]