I need your help!!! Amp guru's please step inside!

[jgcable]

Most of you guys sort of know me.
I know alot about guitars and I have had many. I am usually pretty satisfied with what I have ax wise. Amps... thats a different story. I know entirely too much about amps and it is always getting me into trouble.
I seem to go through phases with my live rig.
Modeling
Tube
Modeling
Tube
Here are my current live rigs:
1986 Mesa Mark III purple stripe head running E34L's.
Mesa 3/4 back 1 x 12 cab, Randall 2 x 12 slant cab running 300w Altec Lansing White Frames. These are both 8 ohm cabinets and I run them both.
Carvin XV112 (basically a X100B 1 x 12 combo). The best way to describe this amp is that its a Mesa Mark II clone. This one also runs on E34L's.
I also am about to receive a Carvin X60 which is basically the 60w version of the above. I am going to use it as a slave off of the XV112.
Boss GT-6 guitar processor. This is a modeling floorboard very similar to the Pod XT Live. It absolutely kills. I run it through any of my above amps running it into the effects return using the amp for just power. The sound is great.

Now.. onto the dilema.
It seems that everybody agrees.. including me, that the Boss GT-6 sounds incredible. Every patch, every preset, every effect. The convenience is awesome. The versatility is unmatched. Its like having a swiss army knife in an amp form. Sounds good huh??
When I plug into it I am always happy. Its my friend. I can depend on it. It hasn't let me down once.
When I plug into the Mark III I feel like I am having a religious experience. It sounds so good that I actually have to say it out loud when nobody is in the room but me.
Is it versatile live?? Nope. I need to also bring a wah, stereo chorus, flanger, digital delay and a pedal tuner. It has built in boost for solos. Do I have to tap dance a little? Yes, but I am a pretty good dancer.
The Carvin XV112/X60 also is an incredible IN YOUR FACE live rig. It is so punchy and clear that my ears ring for 10 minutes after I am done playing it. Again, I have to bring a bunch of pedals to use it live. I will probably religate it to band practice and home practice.

So, here is my problem. At our gig last night I got the chance to hear 2 different guitar rigs.On stage left...a Mesa Boogie Single Rectifer running through a 4 x 12 Randall cabinet pretty much straight up with a wah and a delay and the other band was using a Peavey Ultra all tube amp running through the same cabinet when they came up to play. On the right... a Behringer V-Amp Pro rack system running through a Behringer 4 x 12 cabinet. The Behringer was being powered by a QSC solid state power amp. I also got to hear my own GT-6 running through the same rig when it was my turn to play.
I know what my ears told me. The modelers on the right sounded MUCH more like the record. They were actually pleasant to listen to. The effects were perfect, the amp models were perfect. Heck, everything sounded just like the actual recording.
On the all tube left side it was much more raw and the amp sound was the same throughout the entire night. I liked it much better. It was in your face, punchy... what I mean is you could FEEL the music. The amp sound was ALL OVER THE STAGE AND CLUB. I could tell Jim was playing a Mesa Rectifier. It sounded like a Rectifier. I love that sound. I could listen to it all night. The other tube amp was a Peavey Ultra which is similar IMHO to a 5150 but a little more refined. It sounded fantastic. I love that sound too.
It seemed to me that the modelers on the right were not articulate enough to impress me in a live and loud band setting. Too many effects, too much processing and not enough air being pushed through the speakers. I got bored of it quickly. The crowd didn't seem to react to either of the completely different sounds in a negative way. The raw real sound of the tube amps with practically no effects were both clear and right to the point. The real metal tone was coming from the Mesa and Peavey Ultra side of the stage. I felt like I was just spinning a record on my side.
Bottom line, I really missed my Mark III at this gig and I should have brought it.
I think I am gonna just go live with my Mark III and a few pedals and live without tons of effects at my feet. Maybe a consistant great guitar sound is better than having many different guitar sounds live. Maybe less is more when it comes to effects. Maybe taking the convenient easy way out using a modeler is not the best idea for me. Maybe I should use the Boss GT-6 for open mic nights, recording and session work.
Whats your opinion... I'd like to know.

[Twisteramps]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

Here's what I do...

I use a Vetta live (bet you knew that already) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], but I don't use any effects other than reverb. I don't use any delay except for solos, and I tap the tempo into it each song. Chorus I only use on clean sounds, and flange or chorus I sometimes use if the song calls for it.

Here's what's funny though: Friday night I played a gig with my band as headliners - we were fourth up. There were 2 guitarists in each band, except for the first - they had two. Everyone else was using tube amps.

My Vetta sounded GREAT compared to them - I wasn't lacking anything. The amps I could identify were a Fender Tonemaster, Marshall TSL100, a Crate Blue Voodoo, Fender HotRod Deville. Not sure what the other guys had.

Here's the bottom line - if it effects YOU negatively, then get rid of the modelling stuff and use tube amps live. I guess I'm blessed or cursed - my gear isn't really going to change how I play, as long as I have enough gain and volume to get feedback on songs like flying in a blue dream and can get a decent clean sound too.

Don't worry about what the crowd hears - make sure you're happy first.

Besides - it's nice to have options instead of being locked into one amp rig. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pete

[jazzman]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

I've never really listened to the GT-6, so I have no opinion there. One amp I did like (although not one of the choices you gave) is the Randall RM100. You know the one with the removable tube preamps? I checked one out and I loved it. The modules sounded pretty close to the actual amps and being all tube, it had full body and punch and sounded great cranked! I'm sure I was absolutely NO help. Sorry, this got me thinking about that Randall. Good luck with your venture!

[Boxcar Willie 84]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

John, why don't you just use your GT6 for effects into one of your amps? That way you don't have to carry so many pedals around, and you have everything you need. My friend Will uses his GT6 into a Mesa Rectoverb live and it sounds great.

[markD]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

well, i think that if you felt like you should have had your boogie, then do the next show that way. if you were watching crowd reactions and they didn't care one way or the other, it comes down to what you want. try the next show with the boogie and see if it makes you cream your pants.

my experience has told me that i prefer the in your face agression that my tube amps give me. i use minimal effects (a wah and a phaser), and it is great. every time i step on stage and play, i feel the air smacking the back of my legs and MY sound engulfing the room and it is great. not to be a dick, but the audience usually doesn't care if the sound is like the record. most of them don't notice our "tones" - they just want to be rocked and hear/see a good performance. usxe what you need to give them that.

the last time i had a compliment on my sound was when i had a gear nerd in the band that opened for us. he wanted to talk tone while i was tearing down. i didn't mind since no one was playing after us (plus he unwilingly became a roadie!!). a chick or an audience member has NEVER come up and said that i have a great sound. as long as me and the band are happy that's all that matters.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

First lemme say I'm no guru of amps, I have them, love them and use em [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

John, I think you know that I love raw tube amp sounds. I like modelers too for fast recordings and late night jamming when the wife and kids are sleeping. I've never used a modeler in a live setting so I can't comment on them. I also never would. I have heard people DI through the board before and I didn't like it. There is nothing like a tube amp pushing a 4x12. From the viewpoint of the audience, I don't want it to be too perfect and overly processed sounding like a lot of the top 40 bands used to sound. I want to know its live.

I was a bit surprised in the gig thread that Samcuda brought a DR and you the GT6, especially knowing your past club gigging experience as well as owning some cool amps. I dunno why you didn’t bring the Mark III. Also in the thread about the number of effects do you use, I was surprised that you used that much [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I guess I'm old school in that I like simplicity in live set-ups, a couple pedals or maybe even a multi-effects unit like the G-major or Digitec stuff. The less stuff you run through the better your tone is IMHO. People seem to go gonzo on too much gear and rack full of stuff. Heck 1/2 the time I'm guitar, cable amp [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You can do whatever you feel comfortable playing with but maybe you should go back to square one and keep your stage set up simple as you can and minimize the amount of effects you use. Obviously doing cover tunes you'll need some effects but think about it...most of the time effects are only used sparingly. I bet if you had to, you could go up with an amp, couple of pedals and pull it off and be happy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 90% of the time the song is just guitar and amp anyways. With the gear you listed you could go with 2 completely different set-ups, maybe do the wet/dry rig or clean and dirt and just A/B between the two. Or just use the mark II with a multi effects in the loop and be done with it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Whatever you go with...use the amp [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jazzman]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

It's starting to sound like tubes are winning! [img]/images/graemlins/idea2.gif[/img] Maybe the Boogie is the way to go. I've used some processing when I was using my old ADA set up. I've always liked having a hint of delay on solos (everything else was always dry) and sometimes other effects as needed. All I use these days is my SLO and a chord. Well, there's a wah in there too and a dynocomp for clean, but other than that it's all bone dry! I wouldn't mind some delay for leads, but a lot of people here know about the fx loop on the Soldano. I gave up! Now, it's all about keeping it simple.

[XSSIVE]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

wow, that was a long read lol. i say ditch the modeling stuff for live use and find yourself a peavey ultra plus. you heard it man, i own and ultra plus, a '79 marshall JMP, an Engl powerball and a podXT/atomic 1x12 combo...the peavey was dirt cheap for what you get. it's an all tube 120w amp and it's just a killer amp for the price. i've seen them go for as low as $400 on ebay in good clean working condition. i will NEVER sell my ultra plus, it's peavey's overlooked amp in the bunch that not many people know of since it wasn't around all that long. it was the amp before the XXX and IMO blows the XXX away in tone and is much more full sounding and more versitile than a 5150 IMO. it fills gaps where the two big names leave off...marshall lacks low end to me and has a bit too much mid focus, mesas tend to have monsterous low end but can get a bit mushy at times...the peavey seems to "fix" those "problems" and just screams when you want it to! see if you can find one and try that out with a pedalboard for your FX needs and i think you'll be set.

-Mike

[sambencuda]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

John, I myself tend to gravitate to the modeling stuff as it sounds like the record and for the never ending strive for perfection it seems to be the only way to go. That being said, YOu can't beat that in your face tube sound. What if you run your GT-6 through the loop of the Mark III. YOu can set up a bunch of patches that match what you have now, but with no distortion from the GT-6. Just a thought

[jgcable]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

I have tried the GT-6 using the 4 cable method. I have found so far that the Mesa Mark III really doesn't like stuff in the effects loop. It sounds the best dry. I can get by with putting a very subtle delay in the loop with a chorus,wah and tuner out in front. That seems to be the best set up. BTW.. thanks for the responses so far. Just to be clear.. I am not looking for a new amp. My Boogie Mark III is the best sounding amp I have ever heard. I guess by reading what many of you have said, I should be considering what I like as oppossed to what the crowd likes in terms of amp tone. They really don't know squat anyway. So far, I am leaning towards bringing the Mark III to the next few gigs and see how it goes. At least I know I like it!

[JerryP]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

I'm not real familiar with the GT-6 but I think a friend of mine uses one with his MKI and he just runs in in the loop return of the amp. You can get a switchbox that lets you switch between running your guitar in the front of the amp giving you the Mesa tones and the signal going into the Boss then the Mesa just as a power amp for those tones. The best of both worlds.
I do this with a Line 6 POD, Peavey Rockmaster, and rack full of Rockman gear thru the loop return of my Marshall or my 5150. I actually use an acoustic guitar thru the POD and my 5150 for a decent acoustic tone.
Jerry

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

take the MkIII and the Carvin combo [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] how is the loop on that one?

[Twisteramps]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

John, not to muddy the waters further, but have you tried the modelling stuff through the fx loop return of the Mesa, where you're using it as a huge power amp? I'm curious if this would help. The main reason I use my Vetta instead of my Pod XT for live use is because the Vetta was designed together... sometimes the modelling stuff with different poweramps sounds... well, different. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pete

[Fragle]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

well, franky, i think you all care way too much about your live sound. hell, it's live! as someone above already said, it's all about the people wanting to rock and wanting you to kick their ass.
our band tries to get a clear sound so people can actually hear what you're playing - if they want to, that is. however, you can do this with almost every amp, including modelers and solid state amps (although ss and tube amps don't mix well as we all know). imho, the crowd is what matters, and they certainly don't notice the difference between a 1000$ amp and a 2500$ boutique amp.
also, you should keep in mind that it isn't only your gear that makes the sound. the sound guy plays the more important role actually. a good soundman can make any band sound decent, whereas a bad one can turn your 1000000K boutique high end amp into fuzzy crap.

[charvelguy]

Re: I need your help!!! Amp guru\'s please step inside!

I think you said it yourself..if you wanna move air and have a consistantly (a tube amp consistant? [img]/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] gasp-I know!) great rock sound. Use a tube amp-sounds like you love the Mesa. Btw, the X60 is a cool little head..and cheap, I had an offer to buy one years ago for 200.00 and wish I followed thru with it.

Modeling is a give n take IMO. If you are playing clubs or a lounge gig, it will get the job done and few will be wiser in the audience. I know, not luggin that crap around is very convincing argument..but in the long run...are you happy with the impression you are making & leaving? If you are, then great, you got your $$ worth.
You tone is part of your signature and what you play thru definitely can have a say in shaping that-if a modeler does the trick, then more power to ya. I'm not wanting to enter a tube vs modeler, both have have their benefits and their drawbacks.

but is it trick or treat? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I personally am leaving the 24 bit rack stuff, the modeler stuff at home and using an A/B setup with two tube heads w/ pedals or the select rack stuff being ran thru the head that has the best loop. It comes back to feel, response and moving air and the 'oneness'-(religious experience) that a great tube amp(s) dish out.

You could patch the Boss thru the Carvin and use it's effects and have your Mesa A/B to a single 4x12 cab, or a couple 2x12's. There's many good A/B's on the market-consider a Radial Tonebone switchbone. There's a few others too, names escape me at the moment. If you don't mind tap dancing, you can have your cake and eat it too by using modeling flexibility on the Carvin clean (using amp mods & effects, while still being able to swutch the Carvin to it's own distortion) and it's effects on one amp and the Mesa tube experience on the other....a mini experience of what you just are describing you had going onstage.