a soundman's take on old marshalls and others

[Fragle]

last weekend i had an in-depth discussion with our soundman (he's done FOH for us like a million times, and was touring with various other metal bands, so he knows his shit) about amps in general and especially about old jmc800 era marshalls.
well, basically what he told me was that the jcm800 sound great (as long as the PA is decent, of course) for lead playing. however, he feels that the classic mid-heavy voicing thats the reason why it's such a great lead amp is rather undesirable for rhythm guitars. he says that they cut so well and are so mid driven that they have to be EQ'ed on the mixing desk in order to cut them back a little, making room for the lead guitar to stand out.
i was also talking to him about other amps, and out of the most popular "metal" amps he prefers the 5150s for both rhythm and lead guitar by far. according to his opinion, it's easy to get a 5150 to fill the room with punch when put through the PA while still cutting through for leads.
quite an interesting side note is that he said rectifiers have a very limited frequency range, and are very compressed which tend to make them sound thin when put through a PA in comparison to a more open sounding amp like a 5150 or marshall. basically, he feels that they are best for that "wall of sound" type of thing, meaning that the (rhythm) guitar fills the room with guitar punch without real clarity, so you "feel" the guitar rather than "hear" it.

i was also talking to him about putting overdrive boxes in front of an amp. every time i boosted an amp with an od box i thought that the sound got more brutal, while giving the highs a strange almost "fuzzy" quality that i didn't really like.
apparently this "fuzzy highend" quality i'm talking about often makes the guitar sound better when put through a PA than without the boost.


i thought this was quite an interesting conversation, and i wonder how you guys feel about this.

[charvelguy]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

I think some of the older Marshalls are notoriously weak on low end punch, and when you do crank up the bass, its usually not a tight reponse. There are variations in between tho. The original JTM's and JMP's were based upon the Fender Bassman circuits..they are said to have a better noted bass response-creamier/smoother/warm..all things defining a melted frosty. It really takes some tweaking in the tube dept as well to find ones, even in the preamp section that will add more bass response w/o having it sound flubby.
Course, Marshalls do vary from amp to amp. I think the amp voicing changed somewhat to when they went with a Master vol circuit-they to me seem to have more top end.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Sounds logical...

Sadly, I have seen and heard tapes on me using my Marshalls and then using my 5150s. Seems I never quite got the kickass rhythm sound out of the Marshalls I liked tremendously, and never got the singing leads outta my 5150s that I could get outta my marshalls...

Sigh....

In walked the CAE3+se/VHT2150 rig... Pretty cool. Still not quite there though.

[siggy14]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

i agree and disagree with this soundman, first i am not a professional sound man, but being a guitarist for 22 years i have learned what is a good sound man and what is a bad sound man. I will take your word he is a good soundman as i am sure you wouldnt have posted what he said if you didnt respect his ability to do his job.

So with that being said, what i can tell you is alot of how a amp comes through a PA depends on many things, speakers, the way a person EQ's his amp, pickups, guitars as well as the mic used etc.

I kinda agree with what he has to say about rectifiers, they are way over compressed if you max the gain out, but once you bring that gain down to 60 or 70% you get clarity back. I also prefer the Vintage mode as it does not cut as much of the midrange out which helps with that thickness.

With the marshalls they are known for there high end and midrange, so yes they dont have the much chunk and arent the great amp for metal rythem, but one hell of a rock amp if you dont cut the mids and ues greenback speakers.

That brings me to my next, speakers, damn do these make a difference. First thing is most people that use mesa's use the vintage 30's, now the V30's are not the most clear speaker, but they can handle bottom end like no other speaker and that is why they are so popuplar with the mesa's, that and because there midrange makes up for the loss midrange in the mesa. To me a mesa with full gain and v30's is the perfect wall of sound guitar amp, and that is how i like my metal, thick, very thick.

The 5150's use the sheffilds which basially sound like the celestion 75's with a little more bottom end and a very tad bit cut off the top. As much as i dont like 75's/sheffields as they have to much high end for me, these speakers are clear with good note articulation and probaly why they sound really good mic'd.

Believe it or not i love putting my rec's through my marshall cabinet with greenbacks, the amp comes alive with these cabinets, plenty of midrange and good clarity.

I am getting more excited because i won four brand new celestion G12h's, the ones that are 30 watts and suppose to be a mix between the 30's and the greenbacks. These speakers as qouted on the celestion site "Loud and proud thanks to its heavy magnet structure, the G12H provides a fusion of the Vintage 30 and the Greenback characteristics, producing a thick, warm and syrupy sound while still retaining a tight and focused bottom end. When played clean, the speaker remains clear and musical without ever sounding harsh. In overdrive, pick attack is vividly articulated with sustained notes trailing off into warm harmonic tones."

One of my favorite guitarists used the originals of these as well as the greenbacks, and that would be mr lynch, all his 80's cabinets were a mix between the 25 and 30 watt speakers and i loved his tone!

Anyway I got them at a pretty good deal to, i think i paid $270 for all four shipped. Anyway i will let you guys know how i like these speakers after i break them in.

On a side note, i said it in another post, the 5150 is a great in between amp, meaning it is a great mix of a marshall and a mesa, great bottom end, but still cuts through and sounds great soloing, i dont think i would ever sell my 5150II, i love having it for that 80's metal or metal where i need a good soloing amp.

[jgcable]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Excellent post. Very imformative. I tend to agree with most everything your soundman said. Especially the part regarding the Rectifiers. When a Rectifier is alone in a mix and its loud, it sounds fantastic coming out of the guitar cabinets but I agree it sounds a little thin in the PA. If you throw a Marshall in there the Rectifier almost vanishes in the mix except for the bottom end chunk. Thats why the Mark III sounds so good to me. Its a little like a Rectifier ane a little like a Marshall.
Our soundman says the exact same thing about the 5150. At first I thought the reason it is so easy to get them to sound great live is the fact that he runs across them so much. Now I know the real reason.

[siggy14]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
I think some of the older Marshalls are notoriously weak on low end punch, and when you do crank up the bass, its usually not a tight reponse. There are variations in between tho. The original JTM's and JMP's were based upon the Fender Bassman circuits..they are said to have a better noted bass response-creamier/smoother/warm..all things defining a melted frosty. It really takes some tweaking in the tube dept as well to find ones, even in the preamp section that will add more bass response w/o having it sound flubby.
Course, Marshalls do vary from amp to amp. I think the amp voicing changed somewhat to when they went with a Master vol circuit-they to me seem to have more top end.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think marshall started to go down hill after the vertical 2203/2204's. These amps had great punch and good bass, they they switched the transformers and lost there punch on the horizontal ones and anything after that which did not have the drakes. I tell you right now, i owned a DSL50 with drakes and one without drakes and it was a huge difference in tone. I think the first year of the JCM2000 line they used drakes but then switched back to dagnals. I also owned a 1987X with drakes and a 1987x with dagnals and the one with drakes just blew the other out the water.

[siggy14]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds logical...

Sadly, I have seen and heard tapes on me using my Marshalls and then using my 5150s. Seems I never quite got the kickass rhythm sound out of the Marshalls I liked tremendously, and never got the singing leads outta my 5150s that I could get outta my marshalls...

Sigh....

In walked the CAE3+se/VHT2150 rig... Pretty cool. Still not quite there though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on that too, like i said the 5150 is a great in between, but still not a marshall for leads and still not a mesa for rythem. I read that lynch on the later albums used a mesa 2 channel for rythems and a marshall 6100 for leads, i think that was right after lynch mob, or maybe the second lynch mob album.

[eaeolian]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

I have a feeling his opinion on Rectos has more to do with the people playing them. I really didn't understand people's general hatred of the amps until I heard how most people set them. When it's that scooped, it's going to sound like crap with any band...

[khabibissell]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Yep. People just don't understand how to work them. I can get a Marshall like mid crunch thing going with mine (with an overdrive of course)... It's all in the tweakin'. Also, I use EL34's.

Funny thing though. I bought mine at GC and while playing through it, a sales guy came up to me and said check this out. What did he do? He turned on the modern voicing, cranked the gain all the way up and scooped the mids. I was like "uh no..." [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Alot of people have come up to me after shows surprised that I was playing through a Recto.

[Newc]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

However, what else is the point of having a soundman if not to adjust EQ at the board to compensate for any given amp's shortcomings? He's not just there to keep the volume levels even between gigs/venues, he's there to make the tonal (EQ) changes between the various parts of the song so it DOES stay balanced.

Even if he runs across a guitarist with a rack setup and 90 million patch changes, the soundman will have to re-EQ each patch change in the board to keep it all balanced, so a large library of patches becomes quite useless in a live setting.

Of course, if you want to have a bit of fun with a sound man, set up 10 patches that are identical except for small EQ changes, then cycle through them and watch him chase down the EQ - "Ok, sounds good. Wait, now it's got too much High. There. Wait, now it's got too much bass and not enough high. Fixed. Wait, now it's got all Mids. Got it. Wait..." [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Just don't let him catch on or he'll pull your faders [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[horns666]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

That is a big issue it seems NEWC..

I have been to so many shows..who hasn't ..where the soundamn is not even paying attention..whether he's drunk , stupid , lazy , don't give a crap , whatever.. [img]/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I mean the guitarist is doing a "solo" and he looks a friggin' Mime up there..playing air guitar...he's got quality gear and skill!!!

I just paid 40 friggin' bucks to hear that solo ya fag.. [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

Dude..wake up , we can't hear him..I'm not talking B-grade local band crap either..I'm talking great National acts here.

Good point NEWC..and it's good to see ya back and all in true form..Hope all is going well Sir. [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[eaeolian]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]

I just paid 40 bucks to hear that solo ya fag.. [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

Dude..wake up , we can't hear him..I'm not talking B-grade local band crap either..I'm talking great National acts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good soundmen are all doing country - it pays better, and they don't demand ear-shattering volume. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[noodlesatf]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
Good soundmen are all doing country - it pays better, and they don't demand ear-shattering volume. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, you're right. At least once a year, some redneck in my family gets hitched, and I find myself in a bar, reception hall, or lodge, staring at a country band.

My opinion of the music not withstanding, they've always been mixed amazingly well. I wish they would flip with the guys doing the rock/metal shows. That way, I could hear all my favorite bands clearly, while the wedding receptions would be a washed out sea of midrange and reverb.

[khabibissell]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

I don't think it's the style of music necessarily, it's the volume at which rock and metal guys play. If the band members aren't cranking their amps to get "tone" and be heard above some animal drummer, it's alot easier to mix.

For example, a guy I work with is in a blues band (smokin' guitar player BTW) and I caught them at a local bar playing on the deck. They were running a 150W stereo PA system, through 12' speakers. Everything was miked, and you could hear everybody perfectly. Same thing with a country band I'd assume. My band has a 500W stereo amp running through 2 15' enclosures and we're always fighting to hear, and practices usually sound like a muddy mess.

[Newc]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

If you can't get a good mix through a small PA, you won't get one through a larger unit.

One thing every band of every style - especially Rock and Metal - HAS to learn is co-operation - teamwork. It's not just in relation to timing, but in volume, gain settings, and EQ ranges. Two guitarists with the exact same sound will sound like one guitarist, and neither will have an identifiable "voice", which is always bad, even in Megadeth.

The more you can do on your own without a soundman, the better, because smaller venues where you don't need/can't fit a PA means you can't rely on him to mix you, so you've got to do it yourselves on stage, and that takes practice as much as any song.

Country is easier to mix because everyone knows their place in the tonal spectrum, and it doesn't have as wide of a dynamic range as Rock and Metal. Though I imagine the Country Rock groups take a bit more effort to mix because they can go from Hank Jr to Hank Sr in a flash [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And thanks Bill [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]