a soundman's take on old marshalls and others

[Firebird V]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Ditto what clev said. The 5150 is great live but it wasn't perfect for me for leads...But in my case in walked the Rack SLO. Problem solved!

[horns666]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

SLO has one thing a 5150 lacks a great "singing" lead tone..but I have enjoyed the Amott bros for years playing 5150s..they are nothing but harmonies and melodic phrasing..They are the best example I ever heard of a 5150 lead tone...they certainly made them work!

[StarRider]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get a good mix through a small PA, you won't get one through a larger unit.

One thing every band of every style - especially Rock and Metal - HAS to learn is co-operation - teamwork. It's not just in relation to timing, but in volume, gain settings, and EQ ranges. Two guitarists with the exact same sound will sound like one guitarist, and neither will have an identifiable "voice", which is always bad, even in Megadeth.

The more you can do on your own without a soundman, the better, because smaller venues where you don't need/can't fit a PA means you can't rely on him to mix you, so you've got to do it yourselves on stage, and that takes practice as much as any song.

Country is easier to mix because everyone knows their place in the tonal spectrum, and it doesn't have as wide of a dynamic range as Rock and Metal. Though I imagine the Country Rock groups take a bit more effort to mix because they can go from Hank Jr to Hank Sr in a flash [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And thanks Bill [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%
+1
You have to know your place
It took me many years to learn this

On a different note
Back in the day when I used 3 JCM 800 Stacks
It was all about shear volume,
6 4x12 Marshall Cabinets, There's something about the sound
Thunderous comes to mind.
Half Stacks or ever 1 Full Stack just dosn't have the same dynamics.
A few times I got to stand out in front during sound check
The sound was downright Killer for the time.
I used to mic 2 Cabinets with SM57s Flat EQ
The stage volume was insane, but nothing sounds like
3 Full Stack Marshalls. I never heard a sound like that.
This is why to this day I with try to use at least 2 amps
when I play live. Either Daisy Chained or Stereo [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[Chuckracer]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Wow...you must have been a sound mans nightmare. In my band Below Zero ('87 - '90) both of us guitar players had six Marshall cab's onstage on each side of the stage (when we could fit them all, that is), but we never actually plugged into any more than the bottom left and right cabs.

We tried running them all at practice once, just for giggles, but it was painful at best...and for sure, all we could hear was ourselves. REALLY friggen well, too!

[Fragle]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

well, i've played two large open airs (until now), and both times both guitar players had 4 or 6 cabs on stage (can't remember for sure). even those bands that used a stereo rack setup didn't use more than 2 cabs. the others were spare, show, and different speaker types (iirc it was like 2 1960A/B cabs, 2 1960AV/BV cabs, and the AX/BX cabs with greenbacks). so much for insane backlines.
however, the nice thing about open airs is that you can play as loud as you want [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] i was talking to the FOH dude and he said as long as my guitar sound isn't picked up by the bass or vocal mics it's alright.
by the way, for one open air i had the engl blackmore on stage, the other one i used the 2210. i had them both LOUD, and without having any of my guitar put through my monitors the marshall dominated the stage much more than the ENGL. it's all in the mids. [img]/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

moreover, it seems like things are different in the US. over here in europe i've yet to play a small club show that's not miced up. i've NEVER played without a PA system, and i don't know one single band that has.
of course, if you're not miced up you'll have to "mix" the band on stage. when playing though a PA all you have to do is set your volume levels so that they are balanced.

the nice thing about the marshall is that it basically plays itself once it's cranked. at low volumes i have to use an OD box and i still have to fight to get any sustain. when put on stage and cranked it's not necessary, likely due to the midrange and compression of the EL34s.
the 5150 is indeed a middle of the road amp, meaning that its preamp voicing is midrangey enough to cut through and sing for leads, without having the (in my ears) rather unpleasing low/high breakup of the 6l6 tubes messing with your tone. this might very well be the reason why marshalls and british amps in general are more a soloist's amps than 6l6 using amps.

regarding soundmans in general....i've yet to deal with a totally hammered soundguy. sure, most of the time they had a couple of beers before doing the job, but then again, hardly anyone i know is totally sober on stage [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] after all, they are getting paid to mix a band, and having that said it's like any other job....you can't show up to work being totally hammered when working for example in a bank [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


and by the way, who cares about country?!?!? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get a good mix through a small PA, you won't get one through a larger unit.

One thing every band of every style - especially Rock and Metal - HAS to learn is co-operation - teamwork. It's not just in relation to timing, but in volume, gain settings, and EQ ranges. Two guitarists with the exact same sound will sound like one guitarist, and neither will have an identifiable "voice", which is always bad, even in Megadeth.

The more you can do on your own without a soundman, the better, because smaller venues where you don't need/can't fit a PA means you can't rely on him to mix you, so you've got to do it yourselves on stage, and that takes practice as much as any song.

Country is easier to mix because everyone knows their place in the tonal spectrum, and it doesn't have as wide of a dynamic range as Rock and Metal. Though I imagine the Country Rock groups take a bit more effort to mix because they can go from Hank Jr to Hank Sr in a flash [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And thanks Bill [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%
+1
You have to know your place
It took me many years to learn this

On a different note
Back in the day when I used 3 JCM 800 Stacks
It was all about shear volume,
6 4x12 Marshall Cabinets, There's something about the sound
Thunderous comes to mind.
Half Stacks or ever 1 Full Stack just dosn't have the same dynamics.
A few times I got to stand out in front during sound check
The sound was downright Killer for the time.
I used to mic 2 Cabinets with SM57s Flat EQ
The stage volume was insane, but nothing sounds like
3 Full Stack Marshalls. I never heard a sound like that.
This is why to this day I with try to use at least 2 amps
when I play live. Either Daisy Chained or Stereo [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you are local... where did you play with all that equipment? The only places in the day if I recall were L'mours in Brooklyn, The Rising Sun in Yonkers, The Showplace in South River NJ, The Union Jack, Streets in New Rochelle, Detroit in Port Chester... Did you play any of those places? What was the name of your band. Mine was Aftershock (1981-1985), Cage (1986-1989), Cheap Thrill (1990-1993). Aftershock had a song on the radio (on the cart!!) in rotation. The song was titled Aftershock. We would always come on after The Killer Dwarfs!! We rehearsed at Trilogy Studios in New Rochelle, NY. We had the largest studio at Trilogy. To the left of us was Anthrax and to the right was Black Lace.

[Chuckracer]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Hey John, Below Zero played L'mours a couple of times in...jeez...had to be '88, roughly. Early in the bands life.

We were based out of Syracuse. Spent a lot of time on the "Thruway Circut". Back and forth across the state, Buffalo, Rochester (where da goilz were... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), Syracuse, Albany...back and forth, back and forth...hey, it was a living!

Occasionally our manager would pull a rabbit out of the hat and get us a gig at L'mours or some other place in "The City". That was like going to LA for us hicks!

Good Times!*







*thanks, sully!

[jgcable]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
Hey John, Below Zero played L'mours a couple of times in...jeez...had to be '88, roughly. Early in the bands life.

We were based out of Syracuse. Spent a lot of time on the "Thruway Circut". Back and forth across the state, Buffalo, Rochester (where da goilz were... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), Syracuse, Albany...back and forth, back and forth...hey, it was a living!

Occasionally our manager would pull a rabbit out of the hat and get us a gig at L'mours or some other place in "The City". That was like going to LA for us hicks!

Good Times!*







*thanks, sully!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear you Chuck. So.. you were gigging at the same time as me. Those were good times. Remember bands such as:
TT Quick
Black Lace
Split Sidney
Twisted Sister
Zebra
SteepleChase
Storm Troopers of Death SOD
LiegeLord
Cintron
My favorites out of all of them at the time were TT Quick, Zebra and Twisted Sister.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others


While I agree with a lot of what the soundman had to say. I always take what anyone says about anything with a grain of salt. For some reason people always want tell someone else how much they know about tone and/or how to get their tone, not the guy who is playing...you guys need to make your own mind up and sonically please yourself.

I used to listen to everything everybody had to say and you know what? I think it had a negative affect on my sound and screwed me up. I had to basically say to myself that everybody is full of bullshit and I'll make my own assumptions, I'm the fugger playing, not the sound guy, not the drunk at the bar, not dried up old fuccker who opened for the Who in the 60's, but me, my gear and my two ears.

Everyone hears things differently but I never had anyone come up to me after a show and tell me my tone sucked after playing a gig, never. Does that mean I can tell everyone else how to get their sound? Hell no [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
If you have great bullshit filters then a lot of what people say can help you, but you have to ultimately make your own assumptions, not take for granted what anyone else says about live sound or guitar tone

[Chuckracer]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Hell Yes! Good list, John. There are a couple I had forgotten about.
Did "Immaculate Mary" ever get down your way? Awesome band out of Rochester.
TT Quick was badass! The Article 13 tune "Done With My Darks" was heavily influenced by TT Quick.

Stormtroopers...Billy Milano...whatta nutcase! Anthrax was gettin pretty big at that time, but Danny turned me on to what became my standard set-up: Boss GE7 with the mids spiked into a DOD OD-250 and a 4 input non-master Marshall head (which were avaliable in every Pawnshop for $300...I had a few of them)...Crushing Tone!

From what I've been told, I gather I had a rather good time in that period! [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[eaeolian]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
Did "Immaculate Mary" ever get down your way? Awesome band out of Rochester.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I remember those guys. My sister - who still lived in Rochester in 87-88 - turned me on to them, one time when I was up visiting. Talk about a name I haven't heard in a while...

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

Billy Milano? Definitely a crazy MFer...

[siggy14]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]

While I agree with a lot of what the soundman had to say. I always take what anyone says about anything with a grain of salt. For some reason people always want tell someone else how much they know about tone and/or how to get their tone, not the guy who is playing...you guys need to make your own mind up and sonically please yourself.

I used to listen to everything everybody had to say and you know what? I think it had a negative affect on my sound and screwed me up. I had to basically say to myself that everybody is full of bullshit and I'll make my own assumptions, I'm the fugger playing, not the sound guy, not the drunk at the bar, not dried up old fuccker who opened for the Who in the 60's, but me, my gear and my two ears.

Everyone hears things differently but I never had anyone come up to me after a show and tell me my tone sucked after playing a gig, never. Does that mean I can tell everyone else how to get their sound? Hell no [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
If you have great bullshit filters then a lot of what people say can help you, but you have to ultimately make your own assumptions, not take for granted what anyone else says about live sound or guitar tone

[/ QUOTE ]

+1 i use to be the same wsy, i let what people say affect me, now i just tweak to what i like and never had anyone tell me i had bad sound, ask noodles and matt, they have heard i eq my amps.

[Fragle]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

i agree and disagree with your post shawn.
while i don't want anybody else to tell me how to set my amp, i wanted to know how my gear (that sounds GREAT on stage, at least the marshall) sounds out there in the audience.

[StarRider]

Re: a soundman\'s take on old marshalls and others

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get a good mix through a small PA, you won't get one through a larger unit.

One thing every band of every style - especially Rock and Metal - HAS to learn is co-operation - teamwork. It's not just in relation to timing, but in volume, gain settings, and EQ ranges. Two guitarists with the exact same sound will sound like one guitarist, and neither will have an identifiable "voice", which is always bad, even in Megadeth.

The more you can do on your own without a soundman, the better, because smaller venues where you don't need/can't fit a PA means you can't rely on him to mix you, so you've got to do it yourselves on stage, and that takes practice as much as any song.

Country is easier to mix because everyone knows their place in the tonal spectrum, and it doesn't have as wide of a dynamic range as Rock and Metal. Though I imagine the Country Rock groups take a bit more effort to mix because they can go from Hank Jr to Hank Sr in a flash [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And thanks Bill [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%
+1
You have to know your place
It took me many years to learn this

On a different note
Back in the day when I used 3 JCM 800 Stacks
It was all about shear volume,
6 4x12 Marshall Cabinets, There's something about the sound
Thunderous comes to mind.
Half Stacks or ever 1 Full Stack just dosn't have the same dynamics.
A few times I got to stand out in front during sound check
The sound was downright Killer for the time.
I used to mic 2 Cabinets with SM57s Flat EQ
The stage volume was insane, but nothing sounds like
3 Full Stack Marshalls. I never heard a sound like that.
This is why to this day I with try to use at least 2 amps
when I play live. Either Daisy Chained or Stereo [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you are local... where did you play with all that equipment? The only places in the day if I recall were L'mours in Brooklyn, The Rising Sun in Yonkers, The Showplace in South River NJ, The Union Jack, Streets in New Rochelle, Detroit in Port Chester... Did you play any of those places? What was the name of your band. Mine was Aftershock (1981-1985), Cage (1986-1989), Cheap Thrill (1990-1993). Aftershock had a song on the radio (on the cart!!) in rotation. The song was titled Aftershock. We would always come on after The Killer Dwarfs!! We rehearsed at Trilogy Studios in New Rochelle, NY. We had the largest studio at Trilogy. To the left of us was Anthrax and to the right was Black Lace.

[/ QUOTE ]

We Played all the Big Places L'Mours Queens and Brooklyn
Cheers, Hammerheads, Mad Hatter, on Long Island
Great Gildersleves NYC

And yes we Used 3 heads and 6 cabinets at almost every show
The Band was Knight Wolfe from 83' to 87'

Maybe a few times 2 full stacks, but not many
There was no way we where not using them
Part because the awesome sound, and other was the way the stages looked

Also if you wanna be a Rock Star you gotta walk the walk
The only bands using half stacks where the kiddie bands
We where shootin for the stars, so:
Charvels
Les Pauls
Strats
Marshalls............lots

My Idols at the time, Jimi Hendrix and Uli Jon Roth both used
3 Full stacks, so it was no question for me