Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

[Subvamp]

I've been looking at some old Fender Twin Reverbs lately, and I unwittingly found myself in the middle of the age-old "blackface vs. silverface" debate. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
What are the pros and cons of these two that make them such a debated topic?

[markD]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

well, to me a silverface is killer if you want a really loud, clean amp. my last silverface twin would go almost to 10 before there was ANY distortion. some people talk a lot about tonal differences, but to my ears, which are pretty tuned to fender amps, the biggest difference is how clean they stay as you crank them.

a blackfaced twin is still gonna be really clean, but it will introduce a slight more grit to the sound as you crank it.

a twin will not do the powere tube grind that a deluxe or even a bassman will do. at 85 watts, those amps are LOUD and they are designed for little distortion.

i hope this helps a little bit.

[Subvamp]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

Thanks MD, that's exactly what I was looking for. [img]/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]
I got a line on a '65 silverface that I was leaning towards. It has a black grill cloth, but the "face" is a silverface. Anything in particular I should look for before I buy, specific speakers, etc?

[StarRider]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

I have 2 Silver Faced Princeton Chorus Amps
Besides the way cooler look of Silver Faced
These amps Rock!

[markD]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

well, you buying for collecting or playing? with black grille cloth it will have been changed, because silverface amps had silver/blue grille cloth. stock speakers would probably still be jensens or fender special design, but if it has JBL's or anything else, it'll still sound good. just turn it up and see how the speakers handle it. those 85 watt twins were pretty hard on the low watt speakers which is why many guys upgraded to altec/lansing or JBL or even EV speakers.

[Rupe]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

[ QUOTE ]
I got a line on a '65 silverface that I was leaning towards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an modded/altered amp. Fender never made a siverface amp with a black grill. Also, the first year of production for the silverface amps was '68. These are easy to spot as they have aluminum trim around the grillcloth (some early '69 models had this as well). The circuitry is somewhat different in the silverface model Twins but is easily modified to blackface specs (I don't recall the exact differences or the mods but I can find out if that is of interest to you). The blackface tone is what Fender enthusiasts prefer...I have never heard anyone argue that a silverface may be better sounding and I have been buying and selling these things for over 15 years. A silverface will always sell for less than a blackface in similar condition.
This is true for all siverface amps with the exception of the '68 Deluxe Reverb, Princeton, and Champ (all the 6V6 amps). These are essentially the same as their blackfaced older siblings and a great bargain (although their prices have gone up substantially over the last couple of years, they still aren't up there with BF prices).

I would be careful with the amp you mentioned and have a tech check it out to see if it has been altered beyond its cosmetics. All too frequently you can find examples of these that have been butchered by previous owners and need a significant amount of work to restore to their original sound.

[Subvamp]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

Man, I'm glad I asked!
I just called the guy to clarify, (it's in a local "Mom & Pop" music store)and it's a '68. (I don't know where I got 65 from) Here's a pic:



Judging from the big screws on the front I'm guessing the grill cloth has been replaced. I'm mainly thinking about buying it just to play surf music though,not really from a collectors standpoint. But at the same time, I really know nothing about these old amps, so I don't want to buy something that I'll have to dump a ton of money into before it's working properly. What's the prognosis after seeing the picture? Is it a '68 Twin?

[hippietim]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

A lot of the first year or so silverface amps were identical to their blackface predecessors. They didn't change the circuits right away. First year silverface Bassman's are awesome. I had a brown face one that would kick it's ass though [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

FWIW, one my favorite Twins is the Twin 15 they released a few years ago. It's basically a reissue Twin with a big kick ass 15" speaker. They sound marvelous. They don't break up a bit until you hit 6 or 7 - after that it just gets sweeter and sweeter.

[thebisch]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

Most of the reason that some of the later silver face amps were louder and less distorted is because Fender started making some models with ultralinear output stages. They also raised the voltages as well. That said, that face plate on the amp you show is definatly from a '68/'69 amp. The grill is definatly changed. Many of these amps have been hacked over the years, so I would be very careful and do your research. For the amp you pictured I wouldn't pay more than $500 out the door for, and that only if it had tone to die for(which is unlikely IMO). Here is a real good resource for you to start your research...

http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/

[Subvamp]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

Yikes, you guys are scaring me out of buying ANY of these old Fenders! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Thanks for the info though guys, very cool. I'm seeing the Twins going for upwards of $800-$1000 on the 'Bay, but now I'm wondering if they've been hacked and modded over the years. Maybe I should just buy something a little newer. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I do like that old amp smell though.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[hippietim]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

Go check out the Twin 15.

[markD]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

i buy and play old fenders all the time. they aren't that scary. i have a late 63 blackface tremolux right now. i bought it sight unseen, and it's perfect. the one you were looking at i'd walk away from. there are a lot of these amps around, so you can find them easily.

as a player and not a collector, there is NOTHING wrong with a silver face amp. it depends on what you want to hear. blackface amps have a certain sound that silverface amps don't have and vice-versa. just because a silverface amp has some differnet spec values doesn't make them crap. fender made silverface amps WAY longer than blackface amps. that's a FACT.

one of the best fenders i EVER owned (and i've had a TON of them) was a late 70's bassman 100 with a master volume. WHY? because i needed an amp that would NOT distort, at all. that head fit the bill. i had a white bassman at the same time and thought the sound broke up too quick. it didn't fit my needs. i kept it because it looked cool.

think of fender amps like tools. each era does something specific. to learn up on fender amps i would recommend the "fender amp book".

while you can mod an early silverface back to blackface specs, sometimes that makes it worse. CBS fender designers were after the cleanest sound possible, not the heaviest, not the bluesiest.....

[Subvamp]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

The best surf tone I ever heard and played through was my father's old Twin Reverb back in the 70s, which is why I was leaning towards a silverface Twin. In your opinion MD, what would I expect to pay for one? (I'll be staying away from that one in the pic, you guys have frightened me off of that one... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

[markD]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

i'd say anywhere from 550 to about 850. contrary to what a lot of people think, silverface fender amps are getting collectable. there still are deals out there, but those amps have been out of production since 1982, so they are legit "vintage" amps now. cleaner examples will fetch more money, and blackface amps will fetch MUCH more than even clean silverface amps.

i remember the days of buying fender amps starting at $125 (white tolex bassman) to $350 (clean silverface twin reverb). sadly, those days are gone.

shop around and you may get a deal, but don't feel ripped off if you pay 850-900 for one. especially if it works for what you need.

[jtr]

Re: Fender: Blackface or Silverface?

Try it out fenders are built like tanks. If the price is right and it sounds ok I can see no reason not to get it. The grill cloth is no big deal and check the speakers. How much do they wany for it?