i know i have issues....need more amp advice

[jgcable]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

I thought we were talking about Rectifiers. I agree that the Mark series is hi mids but a good Marshall will destroy a Rectifier toe to toe in a live application in regards to cutting through the mix.

[Deneb]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

[ QUOTE ]
Rectifiers are great amps until you ask them to go toe to toe with a Marshall based amp. Usually, the Marshall will stomp the Rectifier into the ground. Why??? MIDRANGE.

You posted: " you're talking about immediate attack, a very clear and unforgiving sound so ever note punches you right "in the face", yes, that's what i'm looking for.:

That sounds like a Soldano to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell people to quit scooping their mids. :P

[eaeolian]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rectifiers are great amps until you ask them to go toe to toe with a Marshall based amp. Usually, the Marshall will stomp the Rectifier into the ground. Why??? MIDRANGE.

You posted: " you're talking about immediate attack, a very clear and unforgiving sound so ever note punches you right "in the face", yes, that's what i'm looking for.:

That sounds like a Soldano to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell people to quit scooping their mids. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, no doubt.

Soldanos get an excellent lead tone, yet for the "fist in your face" rhythm tone, I think a Recto (or even the 5150 you already have) is better. My advice - try some different tubes, get it biased, and talk to Jerry P about it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

John, I agree with that, Recto's mids are very low.
High frequency dominates over the low frequency. Marshall is all over in the mix.
But some hi gain amps wich have more high mids than Recto are very weak, the mid knob must be turned to 10 to actually hear the mids.

[jgcable]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

After owning numerous Marshalls, my opinion is that a Soldano is absolutely a high gain clear articulate punch you in the face Marshall. The 5150 is a looser heavier mushier version with a splash of Rectifier sizzle on the treble side. It reacts 100% different when you crank it up as compared to the Soldano. The 5150 gets looser, mushier and harsher. The Soldano gets tighter, clearer and more articulate.

[siggy14]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

[ QUOTE ]
Rectifiers are great amps until you ask them to go toe to toe with a Marshall based amp. Usually, the Marshall will stomp the Rectifier into the ground. Why??? MIDRANGE.

You posted: " you're talking about immediate attack, a very clear and unforgiving sound so ever note punches you right "in the face", yes, that's what i'm looking for.:

That sounds like a Soldano to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda disagree with you there, in most cases where i have seen a marshall type amp in a band with a mesa, the mesa just swallows it whole in volume and in every aspect. yes a marshall type will have more midrange, but most marshall type players pretty much cut most of there mid for metal or enough that it is not really out doing the mesa anymore.

As to the in your face, there is just something about a rec's distortion, it is just raw and nasty and brutal and that is what he is talking about, no other amp in my opinion is as raw sounding as a rec. This rawness is great for heavy music, but if you are using a rec for other stuff then it is not a good thing.

[jgcable]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

I have experienced the complete opposite on many many ocassions when playing live and loud. In my many years of road work, Marshall amps have consistantly crushed Mesa Rectifiers in regards to cutting through a mix. Its almost hard to balance the 2 when you are sound checking.
I do agree 100% that for heavy death metal and that other crazy detuned hardcore stuff, a Rectifier is the answer.
Most Rectifier players like scooped mids, big bottom and sizzle. Thats 3 things that cause you to get lost in the mix unless you are the only guitar player. Throw a JCM800 in that same mix and unless the Mesa player cranks his amp, he will vanish into thin air. Bottom line is that many Mesa Rectifier players don't know how to dial in their VERY versatile amps. I was able to get a Single Rectifier to sound VERY much like a modded JCM800. It took a few hours of tweaking but the tones are in there.

[siggy14]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

[ QUOTE ]
I have experienced the complete opposite on many many ocassions when playing live and loud. In my many years of road work, Marshall amps have consistantly crushed Mesa Rectifiers in regards to cutting through a mix. Its almost hard to balance the 2 when you are sound checking.
I do agree 100% that for heavy death metal and that other crazy detuned hardcore stuff, a Rectifier is the answer.
Most Rectifier players like scooped mids, big bottom and sizzle. Thats 3 things that cause you to get lost in the mix unless you are the only guitar player. Throw a JCM800 in that same mix and unless the Mesa player cranks his amp, he will vanish into thin air. Bottom line is that many Mesa Rectifier players don't know how to dial in their VERY versatile amps. I was able to get a Single Rectifier to sound VERY much like a modded JCM800. It took a few hours of tweaking but the tones are in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as the marshall guy doesnt cut his mids yeah he will cut through better. However in my experience most marshall guys cut the mids, use cabinets with 75's and get swallowed by the rec.

The rec is missing some mids, but if eq it right they are there plus the vintage 30 cabs also add to the mids, so by the time all is said and done a marshall with cut mids and 75 cabinet has about the same mids as a recto. Now if the recto player cuts his mids well then there is another story.

[siggy14]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

PS, you know me i have owned every rec and still love them, the problem with Rec's is you have to know how to use them and which one to use for which style of music you are playing. The other problem with a rec is they tend to swallow everything in a band mix, including the bass player! EQ'ing is so important, i pretty much would always keep my treble, mid and bass all at 12 and just slight adjust them per venue/place. I barley ever use presense as that is what adds alot of the sizzle.

[jgcable]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

Yea, Rectifiers are very hard on bass players. Especially if you are using the oversized cabinets.
I think another problem when comparing a good Marshall to a good Mesa is actual real world comparisons. There are an aweful lot of players out there who have never been on stage in a 2 guitar metal band where 1 guy is playing Marshall and 1 is playing a Rectifier. That exact set up was one of my past bands. In order for the Dual Rectifier to keep up with my modded Marshall he had to turn up to an unpleasing hard to mix level and in doing so, he stepped all over the bass player. His stack was probably 20% louder than mine and you could hear my Marshall much easier. He would always comment that he could here every single note I played. My comment to him was its a good thing I don't need to rely on what he is playing to help me because I could barely hear him. He would then turn up to "band away" levels and blow us all away. It would also kill the overall mix. The Mesa amps that tend to swallow everything in a band mix are the Mark III's and the Mark IV's. Its amazing how present they are in a loud crazy mix. They take over the entire stage. At least my Mark III did.

[Endrik]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

Mark has the same in your face syndrom as the Recto but it isn't so brutal and gainy.

[jgcable]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

[ QUOTE ]
Mark has the same in your face syndrom as the Recto but it isn't so brutal and gainy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gree that the Recto has that in your face syndrome but it is way more "in your face" when its alone or turned way up loud.

[Fragle]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

thats a lot of great information right here. thanks a bunch.

ok, maybe it helps you guys if i describe the tone i'm after when using my 5150 and my 2210 marshall, as those two amps are very common.
basically, the jcm800 has a very raw sound to my ears. i tend to SLIGHTLY scoop some of the mids, mostly to make up for the mid bump i'm introducing by using a tubescreamer in front of the amp (tone noon, gain off, volume cranked), btw i'm using the TS ALWAYS, also for rhythm. i tend to cut some highs to around 11:00 to take away some of the raw "in your face" character, crank the gain and channel volume up to 15:30, presence off, and add bass until it's full but
doesn't step on my bass player (about 14:30). this gives me a tone that allows every pick attack to come through, gives good clarity for dissonant chording with high gain, but is slightly too raw, not refined enough.
my 5150 settings can be viewed in my first post. as i already said, it's definitely a step in the right direction coming from the marshall, but the individual notes could ring through a bit clearer, and overall it's also very raw similar to the marshall.

regarding the recto: guys i'm REALLY gas-ing for one...simply because 90% of my favourite album tones are all recto.
however, i was talking to my other guitar player as well as a few buddies of mine, and they all told me that the recto SLAYS in a recording situation, but does not cut through really well in a live situation. sure, it sounds punishing, but the individual notes do not come through clearly, as it's a "wall of sound" type amp. this is NOT what i want, period.
on the other hand, my favourite live tone was produced by a recto (pat o'brien (cannibal corpse) live @ party.san open air), so go figure...

i think a more refined 5150 would suit me best. maybe there are some outboard fx (eq, bbe etc) that can get me there.
basically, i like my notes to stand out (listen to VH - outta love again, the way the notes of the first riff stand out, the almost jump off the fretboard right into your ears), with a good high gain clarity and no flabby bottom end, and huge mids. quite a dark sound, with a lot of lower and mid mids.
....sounds like an uberschall would really suit me best [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] but i'm not going to shell out more than 2k for an amp, that's for sure. at least with the "cheap" 5150 i don't have to worry about it when playing in smokey bars in an "interesting" neighborhood [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]


edit: btw, one thing i just noticed. i'm using the TS to clean up the low end, without it's not as tight as i want. it also allows me to run the resonance MUCH higher which is great for thickening up those low mids. however, i just noticed that the tubescreamer really adds a LOT of the "chainsaw" feel i'm experiencing.
maybe i should simply try an EQ or another OD than a TS?

[jgcable]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

Fragle, your buddies are correct. Recto's are great in the studio. They are great alone in a live setting. They are great mixed with other Recto's in a live setting. I am telling you with 100% certainty that your 2210 or your 5150 would kick the crap out of a Rectifier live. I did it for a few years.
In my current band Aftermath, the other guitar player uses a 5150. I use a Soldano. I kick the crap out of his 5150.
So that means:
Your 2210 and 5150 will kill a Rectifier
My Soldano (and I don't even have a really good one) will kill both your 2210 and a 5150.
My current bandmates all agree that the Soldano addresses every minor 5150 weak spot.
I agree with your assessment of the 2210 and the 5150 100%. I have owned both amps and have gigged with both.
Let me put it to you this way...
Put a parametric in the loop of a 2210 and you will have a pretty convincing 5150.
Put a BBE 422 in the loop of a 5150 and you will have a pretty convincing Soldano.
Put a paramatric in the loop of a Soldano and you can take over the frikking world.
Just my .02 of course.

[Endrik]

Re: i know i have issues....need more amp advice

I like RECTO because of the versality and because of the modern hi-gain metal tone.
RECTO's metal tone is the only thing in need for metal, I don't need classic marshall heavy metal tone, it is 21th century, I need something new.

Some of my fav tones for really ass kickin metal are these:

Mudvayne - The End Of All Things To Come
http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=34...J0VLQMEDUP3TPI

very Pantera-ish song, check out the Dime-ish riff at the 1:46-2:01

This is want I want, a very bassy chunk.

White Zombie - El Phantasmo And Chicken-Run Blast-O-Rama
http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0Q...H1T2WQQK5P1LV5

Check out the main groovy riff. I play a lot of those kind on riffs, a lot of groov 'n shit. This is why Recto destroys the other amps, they don't "sing" when I groove.

Also I play a lot of big chords. With recto I really get the FULL massive sound on the sustained chords. Listen to Alter Bridge or Nickelback to understand what I'm talkin' about. Everything "rings" so clearly.

I don't do super fast palm muting or tremolo picking riffs, the other hi gain amps are better for that, Recto suits for the things better wich I described above.

I don't really get the Mudvayne's tone with any other amps. I can get close but when it comes to recoring then it's a big NO NO, they dont's sound at all like that. Recto is the only way to go the get that tone....ok ok...Diezel VH-4 was very good too, the only non-recto wich I would use.