modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

[jgcable]

Many of you know I am now 100% tubes. Practice amps and gigging amps. I currently gig with a Soldano based rack system.
Its all bundled up for Wednesday nights big show so for rehearsal I brought my Boss GT-6 and plugged it into the effects return of my 5150II amp. My GT-6 is currently programmed to mimic the Soldano rack system.
How did I sound??
Well, the tone was great when the band wasn't playing. It was probably great when the band was playing too but I had a tough time hearing it.
The drummer asked to have me turned up in the PA system so he could hear me in his monitor.
Several times I lost my sound and had to walk in front of my amp to see if it was still on. There was nothing wrong... I just couldn't hear myself in the mix.
The solo's didn't seem to cut through that good anymore. Not like the Soldano.
Even the tone was EXCELLENT, it didn't move me. It wasn't inspiring. I sounded disconnected to the band. The Soldano is everywhere in the mix. You could dry your hair in front of the speakers. The GT-6 did kill the Soldano in the clean department though but even then, the lead singer mentioned that the clean was too sharp and not warm enough. Even though the Soldano clean channel isn't loud enough, it still has a very warm pleasant tone to it.
The wah on the GT-6 is excellent but its a pain to have to step on a preset and then step on the pedal. My Bad Horsie 2 with its step on/step off feature is much more user friendly.
The GT-6 modeler is everything you want regarding tone and effects and portability. Its a really nice piece of technology. Now that I have only been using tube amps and my live rig would be considered "high end" there is really no comparison between the tube based modeling rig and the high end all tube rig. I used to think I needed many different amp sounds live. WRONG. I used to think I needed alot of effects (especially delay and reverb). WRONG.
I used to think I had to emulate the exact guitar tone of the song we were covering. WRONG. Just by using the G-Major Parametric EQ and some subtle effects I can cover any song we want to do. My rhythm channel is basically dry with just a touch of reverb to give it a little more spread. Thats it. If I want a cleaner heavy sound I just roll the volume back a few numbers. Another thing. I am not tap dancing anymore. I basically just step on 1 button on my midi controller to go from clean to heavy and another button for solo boost. Thats it. I do have a few buttons set up for phase, flange and double delay if I want to add it but my tone is so good dry I usually don't even use them.
Regarding feel. With the modeler, I feel slighly disconnected from the amp. Its like I am playing in the recording studio with headphones on. Thats not a bad thing. Its just not inspiring. With the Soldano.. I am one with my amplifier. It feels alive and reacts to everything I do to the guitar. Its not forgiving like a modeling amp but it pays off in spades by letting you totally control your tone, attack and feel from your guitar. Oh yea... and when you turn up a modeling amp it just gets louder. Even the Vetta to a point. My Soldano gets better and better. That is a very good thing. Especially when you have to turn up.
So... my JCF bro's... IMHO.. there is a difference between modeling and traditional high end tube amps. Tubes are better tonally in every respect.
FLAME ON MODELER USERS. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Twisteramps]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

I've used both, and in my opinion a lot of it is the driver, not the car. I played an outdoor gig with three other bands on the bill - we were the headliners, and I have a wireless, so I could hear what their tube amps and my old vetta sounded like from out in the audience.

The vetta sounded better. Amps I was 'against' were a TSL Marshall, a 5150, and a Dual Rectifier (3 channel). Vetta was clearer, more articulate, and just sounded better.

We all used the same cab (mine) for quicker changes between bands, and the mics were the same. Two SM57s on a marshall 4x12 cab. I ran my vetta in mono that night, since they ran one mic on the edge of a speaker, one on the center and blended the two at the board.

I sold my Vetta: I don't really have a dog in this fight anymore. But I've had stellar tone and compliments with my modelling rig, and been able to directly compare it to all tube rigs. Also, I played a gig opening for a band - other guitarist had a 30th anniversary marshall. Greg Crowe was at the show, he and several other guitarists thought my Vetta sounded better.

No flames here, just direct experience. Mine seems to differ from yours. BTW, I got rid of the Vetta because I was getting bored (yes, bored) with it. Wanted something different, and I played a JSX at a music store and really liked it. Haven't regretted it, but I'll likely own a Vetta again. My Pod XTL works great as an emergency backup, and keeping the Vetta and the Pod XTL both just seemed overkill.

Pete

[Rupe]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

I believe the biggest difference is in the feel. I have played several modeling amps that I thought sounded good (but not better than my favorite tube amps) but they lack the dynamics and response of a tube amp. As John said, there is somewhat of a disconnected feeling. If you like to ride your volume knob while playing, they are next to worthless compared to a dynamic tube amp.
I think modelers are great for the stay at home player, for recording, or even for the gigging musician on a budget who can't afford tube amp maintenance, but at this point, they aren't for me (although I use a POD for demos).

[Twisteramps]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

I think modellers are great period... but if your playing abilities and enjoyment are limited by your amp's feel, then one should probably stay far away. I can get away with a lot more slop on the JSX and it's a lot easier to play through. During the same time I had the vetta, I owned a LOT of tube amps that guys drool over (dual recto rackmount, vht 50/CL, Soldano HR50+, Egnator TOL100, JCM2203 Voodoo hex mod, JCM2210, Marshall Jubilee, and more) and the Vetta stayed. Those amps (and more) didn't.

Worked better for me is the bottom line, and some people have tube amps that work better for them. It's nice to have options.

Pete

[jgcable]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

Its all on how you dial them in. I guess for my ears... tubes sound better. I always got compliments from the crowd regarding my modeling amps too. Options are cool. Thats why I have the G-Major and the parametric EQ.
Pete... just curious.... Whats more fun to play live for you? Your Vetta or the JSX? Also, did you ever have an instance where you lost yourself in the mix of the other guitar player or are you in a 1 guitar band?

[thebisch]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

"I used to think I needed many different amp sounds live. WRONG. I used to think I needed alot of effects (especially delay and reverb). WRONG.
I used to think I had to emulate the exact guitar tone of the song we were covering. WRONG."

Hmmm...how do you say...I TOLD YA SO! [img]/images/graemlins/eviltongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/poke.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BTW, while following your latest amp saga, I noticed the questioning of the Carvin power amp. I don't know about your earlier version with the solid state input section (IIRC), but I have a buddy that that has the new all tube version (the one with the chrome face) that after putting 6L6s in it (it comes with EL34s) he liked it better than the Mesa 50/50 he had bought. Luckly the Mesa was still within the return period.

[jgcable]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

I retubed my Carvin T100 with 5881's and ECC83S's. Its bias'd on the warm side. I don't care about tube life. The tone is outstanding. I will replace it though eventually with either a Mesa 50/50 or a VHT2150. I might even try the Marshall 9200 Monobloc. Thats down the road. I am totally happy with what the Carvin T100 is doing. Its CRAZY loud at 3:00 o'clock while running in 50w per side stereo.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

DO NOT "TRY" the Marshall Monobloc... Waste of perfectly good money. Crap...

MESA, VHT whatever... Just not the marshall rack stuff.

[siggy14]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

i find the mesa 50/50 to cold biased, the 20/20 is the only one that is in range, so if you want power amp distortion get either the 20/20 or something else. Me i sold my mesa 2:50, going to sell my 20/20 and i just purchased one of the randall 50/50's of ebay for $570 shipped. They come with EL34's on one side and 6l6's on the other, bias points and pots on the front panel, presense and density knobs for each channel as well as there own master volumes. If i only want 6l6's i can just change the EL34's out.

[jgcable]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

[ QUOTE ]
DO NOT "TRY" the Marshall Monobloc... Waste of perfectly good money. Crap...

MESA, VHT whatever... Just not the marshall rack stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am almost 100% sure I will be going with either Mesa or VHT. Thats after I get my SLO.

[Newc]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

A quick point about having many different tones and getting the same sound as the songs you're covering: Tonal variety is indeed a wonderful thing - at home. Live, you have to reconfigure the whole band on the fly if your tones change with every song. See, there was more than a guitarist recording the song you're covering, there was a bassist, a drummer, a singer (usually), and a producer, and each one had "their" sound on the song you're covering.
While your guitar tone may be spot-on for a given cover, the drummer doesn't have the luxury of swapping kits to match, and though I'm sure the soundman is good, don't ask him to be the producer he's not.

As for modelers, I was under the impression that these things were primarily made for studio recording, not live performances (with the noted exception of the XT *Live* - I kinda guessed that it was intended for live use). I was also under the impression that the Vetta and other "traditional head" types were done to make a certain anal-retentive group of players happy (those that say if there's not a head on a cab there's no sound at all).

[siggy14]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

[ QUOTE ]
A quick point about having many different tones and getting the same sound as the songs you're covering: Tonal variety is indeed a wonderful thing - at home. Live, you have to reconfigure the whole band on the fly if your tones change with every song. See, there was more than a guitarist recording the song you're covering, there was a bassist, a drummer, a singer (usually), and a producer, and each one had "their" sound on the song you're covering.
While your guitar tone may be spot-on for a given cover, the drummer doesn't have the luxury of swapping kits to match, and though I'm sure the soundman is good, don't ask him to be the producer he's not.

As for modelers, I was under the impression that these things were primarily made for studio recording, not live performances (with the noted exception of the XT *Live* - I kinda guessed that it was intended for live use). I was also under the impression that the Vetta and other "traditional head" types were done to make a certain anal-retentive group of players happy (those that say if there's not a head on a cab there's no sound at all).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree most part about how the whole band would have to change. on the other hand though modlers originally did come in as studio tools, then bands started using them live, korn is known to have put the pod through there dual rec's and i believe they were one of the first bands to do it. Then these modeling companies started making ones for stage use, like the flextone heads and the vetta's.

Any amp should be able to cut through if the sound guy is good, however you can not rely on sound guys your whole life. What it comes down too is how you eq an amp, speaker cabinets, mic's pickups etc....

I have seen many groups play with only modlers and sounded great. Examples would be weezer, sum 41, three doors down, the cranberries, yeah they are all on the lighter side but i dont go to much heavy metal shows anymore

[jgcable]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

I think that if there are 2 guitarists in a band and they both use modeling its cool. The problem is when one player is using modeling and the other is using a Dual Rectifier or a 5150 etc...

[Twisteramps]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

John - I've jammed with guys with another guitarist in a band, no problems - but we were careful with EQ so both had a 'space'. Heck, I've had trouble at times with two TUBE amps and the guitarists not blending well!

Newc - most people aren't going to notice a different snare, but they would recognize Van Halen's guitar sound. I bet I could post three different snare sounds and three different guitar sounds - everyone here could pick out the Van Halen one no problem, but they couldn't get the snare. I think most people pay attention to the vocalist and guitar (and also keyboard parts) too. Bass and drums just aren't as noticed.

[Twisteramps]

Re: modeling vs tubes again.. yippeee!!

[ QUOTE ]
I retubed my Carvin T100 with 5881's and ECC83S's. Its bias'd on the warm side. I don't care about tube life. The tone is outstanding. I will replace it though eventually with either a Mesa 50/50 or a VHT2150. I might even try the Marshall 9200 Monobloc. Thats down the road. I am totally happy with what the Carvin T100 is doing. Its CRAZY loud at 3:00 o'clock while running in 50w per side stereo.

[/ QUOTE ]

John...

If you like how it sounds, WHY REPLACE IT? I could understand it if you played through another poweramp and could hear an audible difference... but if it sounds good and you're happy with it, leave it alone.

I changed to the JSX to be lazy - it's easier to play, and I dug the tone when I checked one out at a music store. I have to use what I buy though, so if I didn't use it to gig with I'd probably sell it. Since I wasn't using the Vetta... it was like I had a lump of $ sitting there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pete