live metal and gain - some thoughts

[Fragle]

you might have seen my thread in the non JC section regarding the the haunted gig and gear report. well, for those who haven't, when i saw the haunted (for those who don't know them...swedish thrash metal with a nice modern edge) they used 5150 II head with the gain on 6 using the lead channel. well, i don't know exactly how much 6 is on a 5150 II, but on my 5150 I 6 is WAY too much. on the same day, there played another band that used a 5150 I with the gain around 3. both bands sounded great, actually the haunted had a better sound, but i bet that was because of the soundguy

anyways, this kinda got me thinking. i've never been a real gain freak when it comes to live metal rhythm playing. it's kinda difficult to know how things are sounding down there in the audience, but in the rehearsal space i quite often came up with a seemingly killer sound, and once the band came in i often lowered the gain and bass while turning up some mids. the very same sound that i dialed in with the whole band playing tends to sound like pure crap when solo'ed.

well, to finally come to core of my post....what do you guys think, how much is too much? of course, this depends on a lot of things (pick attack, string size, pickups, amp, etc), but in general, where do you think is the line between articulation, and a thin sound?
it's quite interesting to see e.g. some death metal bands like cannibal corpse playing a triple recto with the gain cranked AND boosted with an mt-2, using emg pickups. on the paper this seems like it cannot sound anywhere decent. the opposite is the case: last time i saw them, this exact same setup sounded STELLAR, with amazing clarity.
same goes for the haunted last night. even with this (imho) rather high gain setting all the complex chords and open string stuff stood out clearly.
so, bottom line is, is clarity really (mainly) a matter of gain?

now, this is for live. when it comes to recording, i totally see the point. double tracking a lower gain track sounds much better than using one (or also two) higher gain tracks. but live you cannot double track anything, so where does all the thickness come from?
i think the most challengeing (sp?) aspect really is that you don't know how things are sounding down there in front of the stage....well, i think it is.

just some stuf i've been thinking about....

[xenophobe]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

Yes, the Haunted had their own sound girl... the last time I saw them... pretty hot, iirc. She was their dedicated sound manager and was only behind the board for them.

This has been discussed here before, but killer studio sound is not the same as killer live sound... first, you need someone that gives a shit on the board... second, turn your stuff down. Normal rehearsal volume tends to be a lot louder than good stage sound.

Too much gain, too much effects all add to a tone that sounds great out of your cabinets, but sound horrible when mic'd up, and even worse when the sound person doesn't give a shit.

[IrfaanSE801]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

Here's the way it's worked for me so far. When I'm playing alone, I use that scooped metal tone with gain out the wazoo. It all depends on how you set those amps too. You can rely on preamp dist or poweramp dist. I normally pump the pre as much I feel (6-10) and keep the post volume really low. Those are with the Peavey amps, with the Randall MTS RM100, I keep the preamp gain low and keep the master volume higher. Each amp will be effected differently, so I can't really say more gain is the way to go, it's pretty much how you set it that particular amplifer. When I play with the band I roll off some highs because the cymbals from the drums seem to drown out what i want, and if I go as high as I want to get the tone I had before, it gets shrill and unpleasant. That's one of the reasons people have complicated setups. It's not cause they mean to (sometimes it does look perty [img]/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]) but different amps require different gear to get em sounding the way you want live. I recently discovered I liked my Line 6 Spider (recently sold it) in the bedroom, but not at all for jamming with the guys. I recently bought a Randall RG150 and another Randall head, so we'll see how those go.

Oh yah, with Corpse live too, it's all about technique. I know Pat o Brien has some killer chops and his playing is tight as hell. I can't remember how they sounded as it's been awhile since I last seen em, but if your gonna use a crapload of gain, EQ the fukker somehow and don't be sloppy I guess is the secret. Oh yah, Pat's B.C. Rich guitar has the EMG Booster in it too, which creates more chaos. I'm actually starting to wonder how the hell they pull that off live if they run their amps the way you described [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Rupe]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

Lowering the gain will typically give your live tone much more punch and percussiveness...in general it will have more balls. It's a fine line between too little and too much so play around with and record yourself. You'll be suprised how different things can sound when you listen back to recording.

[IrfaanSE801]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

Oh yah, forgot to add too, I do use less gain when I play live. Things are much more defined, especially cause I jam into the strings too, you wanna be sure what the audiance is hearing ain't mush.

[Inazone]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

If I had it to do over again, I would have used less gain and more mids when my band was in the studio...even though I already had the mids turned up fairly far and the gain backed off. Live, I definitely try to keep the gain tame enough that my sound is articulate. We rarely have both guitars playing the same thing, so one muddy or harsh guitar will make the other sound bad too.

I generally have my preamp treble and bass at 12 o'clock, mid and "mid freq" at 2 o'clock, gain at about 3 o'clock, and a separate EQ unit (always on) to boost any frequencies that need it.

[jgcable]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

When I play alone at home,I use a ton of gain and effects. When I play live, I use the lowest amount of gain possible without it sounding wimpy. My Soldano is never over 6 on the gain. My 5150II is also around 6. Its easier to play with less gain on a tube amp when its live and loud. It sounds better too.

[sworn_enemy]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

[ QUOTE ]
When I play alone at home,I use a ton of gain and effects. When I play live, I use the lowest amount of gain possible without it sounding wimpy. My Soldano is never over 6 on the gain. My 5150II is also around 6. Its easier to play with less gain on a tube amp when its live and loud. It sounds better too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow John, I never would have guessed you run the gain on the 5150II that high. I don't go past 5.5 on mine and I play all out metal. Rock on brotha! [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[Fragle]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

thanks for the replies so far.

as i already stated, i try not to use too much gain when playing live. to me, it's a fine line between good clarity and a "direct" sound, a sound that doesn't have a lot of feel if you know what i'm saying.
i totally agree that in most cases the sound that's coming out of your cab isn't anything like what's coming out of the PA. fortunately my band usually has a good soundguy, so that part of the equation is secure [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

however, to me this sounds like all those high gain amplifiers (mesa rectifier, peavey 5150/XXX, the new highgain marshalls, VHT UL, bogner überschall, engl etc) are not actually necessary for a live sound. most of these amps have a lot of bass and gain, with some of the mids scooped...pretty much a bedroom sound with 100w of tube power. now, if all those things are the opposite of what's called for in a live setting, why are there lots of people playing them - and having a great sound? shouln'd e.g. an old marshall like a jcm800 with an OD in front be much better suited for playing live? because, in theory, one has to tame his balls to the wall metal machine when playing live, which kinda defeats the purpose of having one in the first place...imho
and do not get me wrong, i love these amps as much as you guys

[metallicarocks]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

As strange as it sounds, I think the acoustics of the room have a lot to do with the gain setting.

Try this experiment, as I really don't have the equipment:
If the sound decays quickly, kick up the gain. If the sound takes a while to die down, turn the gain down.

Just a guess, see what that does for you.

[pagemalicious]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

[ QUOTE ]
As strange as it sounds, I think the acoustics of the room have a lot to do with the gain setting.

Try this experiment, as I really don't have the equipment:
If the sound decays quickly, kick up the gain. If the sound takes a while to die down, turn the gain down.

Just a guess, see what that does for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. Every venue i've played i've adjusted my settings to how it would fit in with the acoustics of a venue.

[Endrik]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

[ QUOTE ]
so where does all the thickness come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

thickness is coming from the WHOLE band, your guitar might sound thin or whatever but a great soundguy mixes it so it sounds fat and clear.
thin=some frequencies are too low or missing
fat=no frequencies are lost, and low-mids are louder than hi-mids.
if your guitar is thin (missing some frequencies) then good soundguy adds those frequencies from bass, drums, cymbals etc.

[cobhc]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so where does all the thickness come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

thickness is coming from the WHOLE band, your guitar might sound thin or whatever but a great soundguy mixes it so it sounds fat and clear.
thin=some frequencies are too low or missing
fat=no frequencies are lost, and low-mids are louder than hi-mids.
if your guitar is thin (missing some frequencies) then good soundguy adds those frequencies from bass, drums, cymbals etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say the soundguy adds frequencies from the bass, etc. The sound is just tamed by the other instruments resonant frequencies, the kick drum goes from sort of 60-80hz, bass guitar is from 80-200hz, guitar is very spread from 200hz to about 12khz. And cymbals are around the top end of that. So you can see that the instruments have their own frequency range. and shouldnt battle each other. A great example of a guitar sounding nasty alone but good in the mix would be this godless endeavour by nevermore, the 2nd distorted riff sounds harsh and mushy when one guitar is playing, but when the band kicks in, it sounds smooth and tight. All the instruments have to compliment each other and not fight each other in the mix. And as I try to tell everyone, dont scoop your mids! While as previously said this may sound great alone, it sounds shit in a band situation. Ok, i'll stop rambling now [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[siggy14]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

OK on a personal note, the amount of gain you are using should also depend on the style of music you are playing, if you are going for that wall of sound, then probaly as much compressed gain as possible is best for you. However if you are going for more articulate metal then less gain.

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the replies so far.

as i already stated, i try not to use too much gain when playing live. to me, it's a fine line between good clarity and a "direct" sound, a sound that doesn't have a lot of feel if you know what i'm saying.
i totally agree that in most cases the sound that's coming out of your cab isn't anything like what's coming out of the PA. fortunately my band usually has a good soundguy, so that part of the equation is secure [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

however, to me this sounds like all those high gain amplifiers (mesa rectifier, peavey 5150/XXX, the new highgain marshalls, VHT UL, bogner überschall, engl etc) are not actually necessary for a live sound. most of these amps have a lot of bass and gain, with some of the mids scooped...pretty much a bedroom sound with 100w of tube power. now, if all those things are the opposite of what's called for in a live setting, why are there lots of people playing them - and having a great sound? shouln'd e.g. an old marshall like a jcm800 with an OD in front be much better suited for playing live? because, in theory, one has to tame his balls to the wall metal machine when playing live, which kinda defeats the purpose of having one in the first place...imho
and do not get me wrong, i love these amps as much as you guys

[/ QUOTE ]

The high gain amps are not just for the bedroom, actualy i do not notice much more gain in my Mesa Dual then i do with my JCM800 with a footswitch in front, the difference i mostly notice is the amount of bottem end and that is why these artists go for these amps. Alot of these artists do not need the bottem end as they are just over lapping the bass player.

One of my favorite bands thrice use to use mesa's, then one guitarist switched to a Uber while the other kept the dual, but last time on tour they were both using Marshall JCM800's or JCM900's (couldnt see close enough) but they were split channel marshalls and not the JCM2000's. My point being is they still sounded heavy as hell in concert because the bass player makes up the beef of the band, he has a great low end sound with thick bass. When i listen to band this is what i tend to like, another group i realy like is underoath, there new cd if you listen to it, the guitarists do not have that much gain, yet the record sounds heavy as hell because of the combo of the bass player with the guitarists.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so where does all the thickness come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

thickness is coming from the WHOLE band, your guitar might sound thin or whatever but a great soundguy mixes it so it sounds fat and clear.
thin=some frequencies are too low or missing
fat=no frequencies are lost, and low-mids are louder than hi-mids.
if your guitar is thin (missing some frequencies) then good soundguy adds those frequencies from bass, drums, cymbals etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, give that man a gold star!

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

gain is way over used and over rated imho. Too much gain live usually ends up sound too mushy or muddy IMHO. Less gain alwo records better too.