live metal and gain - some thoughts

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

thick sounds great by itself, but with a band it just washes out.

[Endrik]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

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I wouldn't say the soundguy adds frequencies from the bass, etc. The sound is just tamed by the other instruments resonant frequencies....So you can see that the instruments have their own frequency range. and shouldnt battle each other....

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That's exactly what I was trying to say [img]/images/graemlins/poke.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I wrote that in a rush [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

anyway here is an great example what I'm talkin about.
http://www.hot.ee/sandimas/The%20Cult%20-%20Rise.mp3

Just listen to it, you'll hear how loose the guitar is durning the intro but when the band comes in... a totally different thing.

[Fragle]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

" A great example of a guitar sounding nasty alone but good in the mix would be this godless endeavour by nevermore, the 2nd distorted riff sounds harsh and mushy when one guitar is playing, but when the band kicks in, it sounds smooth and tight."

that's a very good example actually. i already noticed that...definitely an amazing phenomenon.

but then again, i'm not talking about recording, i'm talking about live and loud.

[kmanick]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

What tubes are in the amp will make a difference as well,
I bring this up because of the settings you stated about the 5150's being used. I retubed my 5150 combo with a matched set of JJ's and now I run the gain on the lead channel on 6-7. and it still sounds sharp. Before I retubed it I could only turn it up to about 4-5. The stock chineese tubes that were in there were a lot noisier (and higer gain than the JJ's) but it wasn't usable. It got mushy real quick.
And now the hiss on the lead channel is way down from what
it was and the rhythm channel actually sounds pretty good clean.

[cobhc]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

Yes your were talking about live, but it's something a lot of people have said on the Andy Sneap forums, and I thought it was worth mentioning. Maybe it was a different tone for that riff alone, I dont know, but if not it shows how the rest of the instruments in a band can smooth out a guitar tone. By the way I definetly suggest picking up a copy of Nevermore's latest, the tone on it is awesome, so organic sounding, especially when compared to their previous album.

[Fragle]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

cobhc, actually the thread you're refering to was started my me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
i agree, TGE kicks ass. nevermore in general does. as for tones, i think they never had a really bad one, DNB being the worst but still decent.

kmanick, atm i'm running a JJ in v1, EH in v2, SED in v3, chinese in v4, and EH balanced in v5. i second your statement, there's definitely less hiss and more clarity. if i wanted to it would be possible to play rhythm with the gain set as high as 6, at high volumes. the core question of this thread is: ís it necessary and/or recommended to do so, and where's the line between too much gain and not enough gain? as for the 5150 in general...i'm still unsure whether i prefer the boosted crunch channel or the lead channel for rhythm playing. right now i'm using the lead channel (gain at 3) for rhythm and the boosted crunch for leads, but in the past i did the opposite and also had a great sound, but very different. the boosted crunch is much darker, with a less aggressive top end, and a LOT more low mids. the thing is, while it has enough gain without an OD, imho it needs an OD to tighten up the insane bottom end of the crunch channel. furthermore, what sounds good on the crunch for rhythm might be too bright when using the lead channel

[metallicarocks]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

I personally don't think the sound of the drums has a whole shitload to do with how the guitar sounds. I think your guitar tone has most to do with the sound of the bass and other guitar.

If anything, as a beginning soundman, I would try to wrap the drums and keyboards around the guitars. A kickdrum in the middle frequencies with the guitars doesn't sound too bad as long as the attack and decay are very quick (ie when a lot of double bassing is used, or bass drum rolls). In less complex songs, the bass drum should probably be a bit lower and take a little longer to decay to fill up the spaces. A kickdrum too low sounds really weird too. It hardly sounds like part of the mix.

Again, this all coming from a beginning soundman. Most of my experience comes from recording in the home studio, not live, so take what I've said for what it's worth.

[cobhc]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

yeah i know it was fragle, i just forgot to quote ya lol

[Endrik]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

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I personally don't think the sound of the drums has a whole shitload to do with how the guitar sounds.

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well it does, every pro engineer would tell you that.
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I would try to wrap the drums and keyboards around the guitars.

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I don't understand exactly what wrapping the drums around the guitar means, but my guess it is not a very good idea, snare and kick drums are in the middle, toms and cymbals are panned after their placement in the kit. Guitars are panned (often hardly). Wrapping sounds like you would put the guitars and drums together, this causes mud and doesn't sound "full", a good mix is "panoramic", all the instruments should have a lot of space.
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A kickdrum in the middle frequencies with the guitars doesn't sound too bad as long as the attack and decay are very quick

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if kickdrum is EQ-d so high then it ruins the song dynamics, well a lot of metal-heads dig that but I don't, kick drum EQ-d more low makes the guitars and bass sound better and more powerful.
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A kickdrum too low sounds really weird too. It hardly sounds like part of the mix.


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it sounds awsome when it is mixed professionally, a good example would be Motley Crue, Tommy Lee has one of the best kick drum sounds ever, it is super low and he has super big kick drums too (26" and 32")

[siggy14]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

I love the way tommy's kickdrum sounds, that is the way i want my drummers to sound, deep and low and powerfull.

[toddstaples]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

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As strange as it sounds, I think the acoustics of the room have a lot to do with the gain setting.



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IMO, No Statement has ever been more true [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[metallicarocks]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

I'll have to try some of that Endrik. I never would have thought of some of that, especially the low kick drum. To me, it sounds like a techno beat in metal! I'll give Motley Crue a listen and see what you're talking about.

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I don't understand exactly what wrapping the drums around the guitar means

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As in different bands have different tone settings on the guitars. Get the guitars sounding good in the mix and then put the drums in the places where the guitars aren't is what I meant. Perhaps that's the guitarist in me and is bad soundmanship.

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Guitars are panned (often hardly).

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Don't like doing it while recording, it sounded really cheesy to me. I only pan them about 10-15% so that they sound like they are playing together but still not on top of eachother. I would think that panning them much harder than that live would cause half of the audience to hear only one guitar, and only the people in the middle get the good mix. I will have to go back and try panning harder again and see what I think. What percentage do you recommend?

[Fragle]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

it's very common to pan the guitars hard left/right in a live mix.

[Endrik]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

metallicarocks, check out the new Motley Crue's DVD Carnival Of Sins or listen to some of their albums like the self/titeled album wich was released in 1994 or the legendary Dr. Feelgood album.

It has been essential in hard rock and heavy metal recordings and live mixing that the guitars are mixed hard left and right, that means 100%. If you keep' 'em in the middle then it causes mud because the the kick drum, snare, lead vocal, bass etc. are in the middle. Also when the guitars are slightly out of tune, the it causes horrible noise in the mix. If you pan them hard, then sometimes it causes the chorus effect (if one guitar is A LITTLE bit lower or higher tuned than another) wich is pretty cool. if you don't want to pan the guitars hard, then pan them at least 50% or even 75%.

[jgcable]

Re: live metal and gain - some thoughts

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metallicarocks, check out the new Motley Crue's DVD Carnival Of Sins or listen to some of their albums like the self/titeled album wich was released in 1994 or the legendary Dr. Feelgood album.

It has been essential in hard rock and heavy metal recordings and live mixing that the guitars are mixed hard left and right, that means 100%. If you keep' 'em in the middle then it causes mud because the the kick drum, snare, lead vocal, bass etc. are in the middle. Also when the guitars are slightly out of tune, the it causes horrible noise in the mix. If you pan them hard, then sometimes it causes the chorus effect (if one guitar is A LITTLE bit lower or higher tuned than another) wich is pretty cool. if you don't want to pan the guitars hard, then pan them at least 50% or even 75%.

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+1.