Marshall 3203 problem

[thebisch]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

Its not about cost, its about BS. Back in the day when a tube went, you replaced it with a tube from the drug store. Those tubes/amps were the ones that made the sounds of history, and no one worried about it. On that note, my power tubes usually are matched, just because that is the way they come. Want to get away from the matched crap? Why don't guitar amp makers put a bias pot for each tube like Conrad Johnson does? No more need for matched tubes.

[DonP]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

John,

How do you know your not using a balanced tube right now? The idea of dual triodes is that each section has the same specs. How often do you find one that is so far off the mark you can hear a difference?

[Newc]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

See, you don't have this problem with Solid State [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Nerds [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[DonP]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

[ QUOTE ]
See, you don't have this problem with Solid State [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Nerds [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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LOL! You better have some matching trasistors to back up those big words [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Soloist1]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

Hey if it all sounds the same to you then that's good for you. But I'm entitled to my opinion. And maybe my ear is more sensitive to what tubes do what in my amp. But call it snake oil or whatever it makes a difference as my hearing perceives it. And fact of the matter is that John's amp was going in and out volume wise because one of the triode sides of the tube went bad while the other still functioned. Balancing them also doesn't guarantee that both sides will fail at the exact time. But chance are if they both test high and even they'll last longer than one that has a side that tests high and the other side that just tests good.

[thebisch]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

[ QUOTE ]
See, you don't have this problem with Solid State [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Nerds [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you do. There is a PI in a SS push pull amp also.

[thebisch]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

[ QUOTE ]
Hey if it all sounds the same to you then that's good for you. But I'm entitled to my opinion.

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But without a blind listening test, your opinion about somthing like this is clouded by pre concieved ideas and expectations, regardless of what is "real".

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And maybe my ear is more sensitive to what tubes do what in my amp.

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Oh jeeze, I am getting audio BBS flashbacks...with no evidence to support the argument, resort to "my ears are better than your inferior ears..."

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But call it snake oil or whatever it makes a difference as my hearing perceives it.

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Key word is perceives. Give a blind, level matched AB comparison a try. Take perception out of the equation.

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And fact of the matter is that John's amp was going in and out volume wise because one of the triode sides of the tube went bad while the other still functioned.

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Not sure how you know the failure mode of the tube in question...

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But chance are if they both test high and even they'll last longer than one that has a side that tests high and the other side that just tests good.

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Test high? Test good? What does that even mean? tested for what? Get back to me on that. Anyway, a new tube that has the two triodes that off from one another is called a bad tube, not "not balanced"! LOL!

Anyway, my original point, which wasn't conveyed very well, was that if the PI was bad in the amp, and John had a known good 12AX7 laying around that he could use, and if it fixed his problem, and if the amp still sounded right, then buying a new 12AX7 balanced or otherwise was a waste of money.

[Soloist1]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

Preamp tubes are tested for mutual transconductance. Or some testers test using an emissions test. The first being the better of the testing methods. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. But if you were an audiophile, as you claim to have been, I would think you would have known that. I would also think that you would know that the triode side of a tube tests good according to the manufacturers specs of the particular tester being used. And a tube that does not have balanced triode sides isn't necessarily a "bad tube". It's simply a tube that isn't balanced between the two test readings for either side. The measurements can still meet the minimum required reading to be considered good without being the same for both triode side. And all of my conclusions about tubes and the effects they have are from trying different tubes in my amp. Sorry I didn't keep a journal for your review. As far as testing blindly, I can blindly tell that you have a stick so far up your fucking ass that I would probably be able to see leaves sticking out of your mouth.

[DonP]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

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I can blindly tell that you have a stick so far up your fucking ass that I would probably be able to see leaves sticking out of your mouth.

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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can blindly tell that you have a stick so far up your fucking ass that I would probably be able to see leaves sticking out of your mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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The only problem with that statement is its winter around here and it would be hard to find a stick with leaves on it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[toejam]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

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do you also just throw power tubes that aren't balanced in your amp because balanced are more expensive?

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I do! Oh, wait, I've got a THD Univalve that only has one power tube and can be changed to pretty much whatever I want, and the two preamp tubes can be whatever I want, too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Rupe]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

Lets play nice kids. For what its worth, I have spoken to several amp techs on this issue and everyone one of them stated that the balanced preamp tube concept was a bunch of BS and simply a way for a company to charge more and take advantage of the unknowing and the "I need the best of everything" consumer.
I would be curious if the difference someone is hearing is simply because it is a different tube with more pleasing tonal charactaristics or if the balancing really makes a difference. A blind test would need a large sample size to truly get past this dynamic.

[thebisch]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

[ QUOTE ]
Preamp tubes are tested for mutual transconductance. Or some testers test using an emissions test. The first being the better of the testing methods. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. But if you were an audiophile, as you claim to have been, I would think you would have known that. I would also think that you would know that the triode side of a tube tests good according to the manufacturers specs of the particular tester being used. And a tube that does not have balanced triode sides isn't necessarily a "bad tube". It's simply a tube that isn't balanced between the two test readings for either side. The measurements can still meet the minimum required reading to be considered good without being the same for both triode side. And all of my conclusions about tubes and the effects they have are from trying different tubes in my amp. Sorry I didn't keep a journal for your review. As far as testing blindly, I can blindly tell that you have a stick so far up your fucking ass that I would probably be able to see leaves sticking out of your mouth.

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Actually, it was more of a rhetorical question. Yes, a badly unbalanced tube could be a problem. The problem is that you make it sound like a wildly out of balance set of triodes in a 12AX7 is a normal thing for a new tube. It isn't. What do you have against listening tests? Don't you want to know if the money you spend on "upgrades" is really an upgrade, or do you not care as long as you "believe". I used to have a blast doing blind listening tests with some of my audio buddies, it is VERY enlightening. As for the stick comment, I can assure you there are no foreign objects in my ass, I just get sick of the abundance of so called hype generating experts on the net. I have been there, done that, and learned the hard way, by wasting too much money, and at the very least want to try and make people think and educate themselves to make an unbiased, informed decision free of hype before parting with their money.

[thebisch]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

"A blind test would need a large sample size to truly get past this dynamic. "

To be scientifically meaningful, you are correct. For my own personal use though, I would be happy with 3 or 4 of each "non balanced" and "balanced" of the same brand/model/production batch. All brand new, of course.

[Soloist1]

Re: Marshall 3203 problem

Well you must assume your the only one who's done listening tests. Didn't I make my self clear when I said I have tested tubes in my amp? Maybe I need to spell it out in capital letters. I HAVE TESTED MANY TUBES IN MY AMPLIFIER. THAT MEANS WHILE IT WAS ON AND A NOISE CAME OUT OF IT. And I never said all new tubes being unbalanced is a normal occurance. Where exactly did you get that from? I told John he should get a balanced tube for his phase inverter. Didn't tell you to get one. If you don't want aabalanced tube as a phase inverter don't use it. I wasn't making the suggestion to you. And I also never claimed I was an expert of any kind. Since you called me out on tube testing you got what you asked for. I suppose every tube tester every one ever bought is a waste of money in your mind though. I really could care less. My point was in regards to John's issue. If he doesn't want a matched tube that's his choice. Personally I think the only one coming off like a know it all is you. You've "been there, done that". I guess the rest of us aren't allowed to form our own opinions. And as I stated in my post, prior to you picking it apart, if your happy with whatever you throw in then all the power to you. DonP at least has a good arguement that is backed by very factual information. I agree the negative feedback loop is designed in to eliminate the offset in component values. I still believe the closer your tubes are to balanced the better your tone will be. He's entirely entitled to his opposing opinion however.