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**Fragle** · 03-09-2006, 10:09 AM

Re: Amptone.com

way too much processing going on.....

"Also they recommended running any time based effects after the amp and not in the effects loop because you get distorted sounds running it before the power amp section. So would I run the reverb/dealy after the amp along with the final EQ and plug the speakers then into the effects unit? "
um yeah....i'm not totally sure, but i wouldn't do that. i doubt one could put anything between the speaker outs and the cabs without frying the amp.

**jgcable** · 03-09-2006, 10:35 AM

Re: Amptone.com

Sounds like a crap load of noise.
Delay sounds like canned ass in front of an amp. It should always be in the loop when possible.
I wouldn't even try it.

**DonP** · 03-09-2006, 10:56 AM

Re: Amptone.com

I think what they are saying is that for best effect, record the amp dry and add effects to the recording.

The idea to use EQ's before distortion and post distortion is good. Pre-distortion so that you don't need to find a pickup with the right EQ.

**shredmonster** · 03-09-2006, 11:07 AM

Re: Amptone.com

So how does this sound:

Guitar> EQ Pedal> Amp then using FX IN> Effects Unit> FX Out>

10 Band EQ> THD Hotplate or similar >Speakers

Do I need the final EQ? I don't know - I guess if it makes the rig sound better.

The idea I think they were getting at is to "Bracket" the distortion stages - putting EQ before and after the Preamp Distortion and then EQ before and after the Poweramp distortion stage. Hence 3 EQs - one before the amp, one in the effects loop and one after the poweramp.

**shredmonster** · 03-09-2006, 11:10 AM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
The idea to use EQ's before distortion and post distortion is good. Pre-distortion so that you don't need to find a pickup with the right EQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don that is exactly what they were saying regarding puting an EQ pedal after the guitar.

**DonP** · 03-09-2006, 11:14 AM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea to use EQ's before distortion and post distortion is good. Pre-distortion so that you don't need to find a pickup with the right EQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don that is exactly what they were saying regarding puting an EQ pedal after the guitar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I read this site many years ago [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I've remembered it because it made sense.

**DonP** · 03-09-2006, 11:17 AM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
So how does this sound:

Guitar> EQ Pedal> Amp then using FX IN> Effects Unit> FX Out>

10 Band EQ> THD Hotplate or similar >Speakers

Do I need the final EQ? I don't know - I guess if it makes the rig sound better.

The idea I think they were getting at is to "Bracket" the distortion stages - putting EQ before and after the Preamp Distortion and then EQ before and after the Poweramp distortion stage. Hence 3 EQs - one before the amp, one in the effects loop and one after the poweramp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I might put the second EQ before the FX stuff. Most of the amp's internal tone controls are before the FX loop as well, but it might work good either way. Try it both ways.

**mjtripper** · 03-09-2006, 01:31 PM

Re: Amptone.com

When they are talking about time based effects after the amp what they mean is after all the distortion. If you are using power tube distortion with delay or verb in the loop it will sound as bad as delay and verb before the amp when using preamp distortion. When using 50 and 100 watt amps you have to be really loud to get power tube distortion. To get your effects post power amp distortion though you would mic the amp and run your time based effects through the loop in the sound board. This is how you do it in the studio. If you did it live you would have to be able to crank the amp and then over power it with the pa - i.e. really friggin loud!! I don't know of any way to add a loop between the amp and cab.

A thing I like to do to show people this at low sound levels is using pedals into a small clean combo. Use an od pedal for a little break up into some time based effects into something like a ds1. This simulates the pre-amp breakup -> effects -> power tube breakup. Then move the effects post ds1 and see how much everything cleans up.

**mjtripper** · 03-09-2006, 01:49 PM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea to use EQ's before distortion and post distortion is good. Pre-distortion so that you don't need to find a pickup with the right EQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don that is exactly what they were saying regarding puting an EQ pedal after the guitar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly - one to make your guitar sound how you want and one to make your amp(and stuff) sound how you want. Two eqs can make a huge difference. Most people look at my two eqs and think it's silly until I show how much you can change the tone of everything using it that way. I put one first in the chain and one just after distortion - I don't use power tube distortion though. If I'm not happy with the tone I might move the second one to after the delay and verb but usually don't. If the eq can't drastically alter your tone chances are it's in the wrong spot.

I prefer parametrics but they are hard to find now. I like the boss pq-4 for pedals, it's not fully parametric but as close as you can get in a pedal. There are a few different rack units available that work well. I used to have a tascam 4 channel, 4 band, fully parametric eq that rocked. I used two channels, the bass player used one, and the singer used one. With two eqs the overall chain would be something like this:

guitar -> eq -> wah -> distortion (pedal or preamp) -> efx loop start -> eq -> chorus -> delay -> gate -> verb -> clean boost -> efx loop end

**MBreinin** · 03-09-2006, 01:52 PM

Re: Amptone.com

I have always wondered how people record dry, and then add time based effects. Because, for me, I have to hear the reverb and delay in order to play what I am trying to achieve. I also find a dry sound so completely uninspiring that I would rather not play, then play dry.

Mike

**MBreinin** · 03-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Re: Amptone.com

Double.

**mjtripper** · 03-09-2006, 01:57 PM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
I have always wondered how people record dry, and then add time based effects. Because, for me, I have to hear the reverb and delay in order to play what I am trying to achieve. I also find a dry sound so completely uninspiring that I would rather not play, than play dry.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

You can add the effects to the headphone monitor mix you hear while you are recording and either lay them to tape then or wait and add them later. Laying dry to tape gives you the most flexibility later.

**toejam** · 03-09-2006, 03:32 PM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
Also they recommended running any time based effects after the amp and not in the effects loop because you get distorted sounds running it before the power amp section.

[/ QUOTE ]
That makes absolutely no sense. The effects loop IS after the power amp section, so there will be no distortion going on if you put, for example, a delay in the loop. If you put the effect before the amp, you WILL get some distortion in your signal.

**shredmonster** · 03-09-2006, 03:48 PM

Re: Amptone.com

[ QUOTE ]
That makes absolutely no sense. The effects loop IS after the power amp section, so there will be no distortion going on if you put, for example, a delay in the loop. If you put the effect before the amp, you WILL get some distortion in your signal.

[/ QUOTE ]

OOPs. I thought the FX Loop was between the preamp and the poweramp.

So then I will probably do what Don was referring to and put an EQ in the FX Loop before my Reverb/Dealy unit (in addition to one after the guitar prior to the amp).

Then run like a Weber Attenuator to the speakers. The Framus is a very high gain amp but I suspect that I might get better saturation if I use an attenuator so I can really saturate the tubes.

OK think I got it. I have been using an Ibanez SDE 1000+ from the 80's. A great unit for the price. But I am thinking of upgrading to either a Roland Digital Delay in combo with a Lexicon Verb Unit - or perhaps an Eventide H3000.

I suppose if the effect unit has an EQ I won't need a separate one in line prior to the effects.

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