Amptone.com

[DonP]

Re: Amptone.com

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Also they recommended running any time based effects after the amp and not in the effects loop because you get distorted sounds running it before the power amp section.

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That makes absolutely no sense. The effects loop IS after the power amp section, so there will be no distortion going on if you put, for example, a delay in the loop. If you put the effect before the amp, you WILL get some distortion in your signal.

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Hate to question you, almighty Toe [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], but effects loops are ALWAYS before the power amp. If they are after the power amp, that would mean your effects are powering your speakers [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

You can still have power amp distortion and speaker distortion after your time-based effects if they are in the loop. Only way not to, is to mike the cab and add the effects in the switchboard/mixing board/whatever.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: Amptone.com

dude. just expiriment with the treble off and pretend the mid knob is the treble knob. then see how the presence (and resonance if it has one) knobs effects that tone. this will also give you a better feel of how this amps eq works with itself.

anyway try that and you'll get great high gain tones that will cut through the mix better and hurt your ears less.


and if you're going to go the other rout, there are only 2 items that i would ever put between an amp(pwr section) and its speakers. and those are:

1. a certain design direct box.(one capable of handling a speaker load in and through. and

2. a thd hot plate or webber mass power attenuator.

anything else could potentially damage your head in a major (expen$ive) way.

[toejam]

Re: Amptone.com

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Also they recommended running any time based effects after the amp and not in the effects loop because you get distorted sounds running it before the power amp section.

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That makes absolutely no sense. The effects loop IS after the poweramp section, so there will be no distortion going on if you put, for example, a delay in the loop. If you put the effect before the amp, you WILL get some distortion in your signal.

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Hate to question you, almighty Toe [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], but effects loops are ALWAYS before the power amp. If they are after the power amp, that would mean your effects are powering your speakers [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

You can still have power amp distortion and speaker distortion after your time-based effects if they are in the loop. Only way not to, is to mike the cab and add the effects in the switchboard/mixing board/whatever.

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Oops, my bad. I meant after the preamp. D'OH! The loop is between the pre and power amp, but any effects in the loop will not distort like they would in front of the amp. Most time-based effects sound like ass in front of the amp; though, you can use them there if they sound good to you. Good point about the power amp and speaker distortion after, but I don't think most people would notice much of an affect on sound that way anyhow, and that's why we use the loop.

I didn't understand the recommendation part of running effects after the amp, because how can you run effects after your amp? That's the part that still doesn't make sense.

[mjtripper]

Re: Amptone.com

You can get post power amp effects by micing the cab and running the effects through the loop in the board.

[toejam]

Re: Amptone.com

Ah, I get it now.

[metallicarocks]

Re: Amptone.com

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I am not a sound guy. Pretty much have played straight through a good high gain amp (Framus Cobra) and used a good reverb/dealy unit in the effects loop.

I was at amptone.com and they have some interesting things I have not tried. Their point was how to get saturation particularly at acceptable levels so as to not shatter your ear drums.

They recommended an eq pedal before the amp then another eq between the preamp and power amp (effects loop) then another eq after the power amp and finally a power attenuator so you can crank the amp and have low volume at the speakers.

Anybody have experience with this? I am talking about live sound here not a recording situation.

Also they recommended running any time based effects after the amp and not in the effects loop because you get distorted sounds running it before the power amp section. So would I run the reverb/dealy after the amp along with the final EQ and plug the speakers then into the effects unit?


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#1-Never seen a rig with that many EQ's, it seems ridiculous to me. It would be very hard to tweak, I think most of us would get a really thin tone from that. Think about it, one EQ carving out frequencies that goes to more effects and then another EQ carving out even more frequencies. For example, if you hear that you want to take out some low (or whatever frequency), which EQ are you going to go to? It would sound different depending on which processor. An EQ processor is a good tool, used correctly (often that means sparingly). It is up to the player where at in the signal that is placed. As for me, I would put in after the preamp (in other words, in the FX loop).

#2-Time based FX should ALWAYS go in the FX loop. Think of the signal flow. Let's take delay for example. Think of the sound of the signal straight from your guitar. That is all that is being repeated. As it dies, it pushes the preamp less and gives you a really wierd sound. I would imagine it would sound like gradually turning down your volume pot while repeating whatever you played last.
Now think about the signal coming from your preamp. You get the sound of your distortion repeating itself. That's what you want to hear. You'll probably want to put delay in the last of the chain (unless you have a reverb unit).

#3-Please, don't ever put an FX unit between the amp head and the cabs! That's a lot of power, not meant for pedals/processors.

[Misanthrope189]

Re: Amptone.com

While we're on the loop topic...what is the difference between running the output of my preamp into an effects processor, and then into the power amp, as opposed to running the output of my preamp into the poweramp, with the effects in the effects loop?

Thanks a lot,
Nick

[mjtripper]

Re: Amptone.com

It might be the same thing depending on where in the signal chain the loop is in your preamp. In that case it would just give you more control, turn off the loop and turn off everything in it. If I understand your question correctly anyway. A stand alone preamp into effects into the poweramp would be about the same as using the loop in a head.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: Amptone.com

see below for short answer.

you can run an fx unit or any other preamp or line level signal into your effects loop return and use your amp as a power amp only.

YOU CAN NOT, however, RUN THE PREAMP SECTION ONLY OF A HEAD OR COMBO!!!! like out the fx loop send to a different power amp without a power soak or cab, and in most cases also having the fx send without its signal returning.

its the same principal of NEVER TURNING YOUR AMP ON WITHOUT A SPEAKER PLUGGED IN!

IF THE POWER SECTION IS ON, IT NEEDS A LOAD HOOKED UP TO IT.

you may run both. if you have a stereo fx proccessor (or pedal) you can send the Right out to one amp as long as the Left out goes back to the return of the preamp it came from. or vice versa.
so you could do that and have that Right FX out go to the FX return of another amp with another cab.

what the pro's like to do is use 3 stacks (or half stacks) and take the center head and plug into that. put a splitter on ther FX send of of it, split it and send the dry signal back to it and mic it and thats your main sound. then they take the other signal from the splitter and run that into a stereo FX unit. set up your FX and set them all to 100% WET!then the right and left outs of the fx unit go to the FX returns of the other two stacks on each side of your dry stack. and you control the amount of FX you want to hear by the volume of each head. then you have your stage stereo setup and the soundman can mic each cab and have house volume control of just the wet sound as well. (or just mic your center and use house FX in the PA.) if your amp has a "SLAVE OUT" feature, you will not need a splitter. just take the slave out to the FX unit in and leave your loop out of it on the dry, center head.






for the short version: FX SEND must FX RETURN. but FX can allways RETURN alone.

[toejam]

Re: Amptone.com

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its the same principal of NEVER TURNING YOUR AMP ON WITHOUT A SPEAKER PLUGGED IN!

IF THE POWER SECTION IS ON, IT NEEDS A LOAD HOOKED UP TO IT.


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True, unless you have a THD Univalve, Bivalve or Flexi 50 head... they've got their own load built in and can be used as a preamp without a speaker, especially useful for direct recording or just using it as a huge, glorified stomp box!

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: Amptone.com

well yeah... THD gets it. true versitiliy.

[shredmonster]

Re: Amptone.com

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You can get post power amp effects by micing the cab and running the effects through the loop in the board.


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Yeah that is what they were talking about - its starting to make more sense.

They said putting time based effects in the FX Loop is not always the best idea because if you are saturating the power amp which comes after the Loop it can distort the effects.

So they recommended a mic at the cab and then putting in the effects after the power amp stage for the best sound.

However, this involves a sound board and PA. I am just trying to get the best live sound from my amp without the mic and PA system.

So using the tube distortion from my amp I think I am going to do: Guitar> EQ Pedal> AMP> FX Loop In> Effects> FX Loop Out> Weber Attenuator> Speakers.

This way I can control my PUPs via the EQ going into the amp. Another solution would be to use Shadow PUPs I have heard which have built in controllable EQ's and can sound like any PUP imagineable.

Most effects units have some sort of EQ anyway and the middle EQ amptone seems to be referring to is the amps Treble, Mids and Bass also called the amps Tone Stack. So thats plenty of EQ. So I don't think it will be necessary to add another EQ in the FX Loop right before the time based effects.

Aditionally I think the Weber has a treble and bass control.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: Amptone.com

less is more.

[mjtripper]

Re: Amptone.com

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less is more.

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That is so true. I'm finding the better guitars, pickups, and amps I get the less I need/want the other stuff.