Modelers vs tube amps.. yeehaa!!!

[jgcable]

I can't think of a single guitar player whose style I try to emulate that plays a purely dry tone. To me, dry is like nails on a chalkboard.

I remember the first time I used a delay pedal....it was like the clouds parted and there it was...tone that sounded like a record!

I use a nice warm reverb and delay setup to enhance the reverb, ala Eddie.

Mike

Probably one of the cleanest metal players from back in the day that was from the EVH school is Vito Bratta. He pretty much pulled off complex EVH riffs with a basically dry signal. Reb Beach also plays pretty dry. So did Randy. I prefer the Lynch wet signal myself. I also like Malmsteens combination of a large hall reverb and delay. Its dead clear but totally wet.

[MBreinin]

Probably one of the cleanest metal players from back in the day that was from the EVH school is Vito Bratta. He pretty much pulled off complex EVH riffs with a basically dry signal. Reb Beach also plays pretty dry. So did Randy. I prefer the Lynch wet signal myself. I also like Malmsteens combination of a large hall reverb and delay. Its dead clear but totally wet.

Well, Vito might have played dry, but they added verb and delay to his signal post production to thicken it. He does not come accross as "dry" in my book. When I think of dry, I think of Funk 49, now THAT is dry!

For me, that kinda distorted Marshall dry sound defines the '70s. Some guys can make it work, like Walsh, and with some guys it just sounds like canned ass coming from the speakers. When I play dry....it just seems like there is no sustain...even if the notes are sustaining...there is just no depth to the tone...no ambience, I guess.

I have to have, at least, reverb. I just love reverb..deep, plush reverb.

Mike

[jgcable]

Well, Vito might have played dry, but they added verb and delay to his signal post production to thicken it. He does not come accross as "dry" in my book. When I think of dry, I think of Funk 49, now THAT is dry!

For me, that kinda distorted Marshall dry sound defines the '70s. Some guys can make it work, like Walsh, and with some guys it just sounds like canned ass coming from the speakers. When I play dry....it just seems like there is no sustain...even if the notes are sustaining...there is just no depth to the tone...no ambience, I guess.

I have to have, at least, reverb. I just love reverb..deep, plush reverb.

Mike

I agree Mike. I guess Vito's "dry" tone was dry as compared to the other 80's metal players of the day. The only time I can play totally dry is live when my amp is CRANKED. I ofter wonder how I gigged all those years playing metal with nothing but a Hiwatt stack, an MXR Distortion + and a Phase 90. I didn't get an echoplex or an analog delay pedal until a few years after we were gigging 2-3 times a week! No reverb.. no nothing.

[Fragle]

Personally, I think you are using the wrong approach when it comes to delay. The way you use it is the way most players do. Setting your delay for ambience with a single repeat and a short delay time is exactly opposite of what Lynch does.
Not only does George tap tempo (or have preset to the correct tempo) but he actually uses 2 delays set at different timing. He engages the second delay for those long swells when he holds or double stop bends and also when he does his signature vertical vibrato.
When you use delay as ambience it only muds up your tone and makes complex passages sound sloppy. The trick is to play "to" the delay and if the delay tempo matches the tempo of the song it sound so much better.
I tap tempo all of my delays. Most of them are presets that are approximately the same tempo as the song I am playing.
A popular delay time for me is one delay set at 380ms and the other set at 420ms. I engage the 420ms only on long notes, dives, bends or wicked vibrato. The 380 covers many of the straight up 80's metal tunes.
Try experimenting more with your delay. It really isn't a set and forget effect.

well, i don't think there is such a thing as "wrong" when it comes to music, but to each his own.....maybe i just picked the wrong example....souls of black era alex skolnick or edge of thorns criss oliva might be better.
thanks for the info on george's setup, btw.

[MBreinin]

I agree Mike. I guess Vito's "dry" tone was dry as compared to the other 80's metal players of the day. The only time I can play totally dry is live when my amp is CRANKED. I ofter wonder how I gigged all those years playing metal with nothing but a Hiwatt stack, an MXR Distortion + and a Phase 90. I didn't get an echoplex or an analog delay pedal until a few years after we were gigging 2-3 times a week! No reverb.. no nothing.

Well, when you have an amp cranked, balls to the wall in a room....that is different because moving that much air creates ambience. I play at low levels, as a matter of fact, I can't stand to really crank it. So, I have to create the ambience artificially.

Curiously though, I am not an effects nut. I like reverb and delay, and I dig some chorus if I am doing clean arpeggiated chords or the such...but for the most part I feel that effects take away from that...I don't know, that MEAT, you know? Like when you just strum a heavily distorted A chord and it just resonates. Play that same chord with chorus, or phase or flange or with a harmonizer and it just isn't the same.

I guess I am always just seeking that ultimate FAT tone. If you look at the guys I admire, you can see where THAT came from!! This is also a reason why I am not a huge Randy fan.

Mike

[jgcable]

well, i don't think there is such a thing as "wrong" when it comes to music, but to each his own.....maybe i just picked the wrong example....souls of black era alex skolnick or edge of thorns criss oliva might be better.
thanks for the info on george's setup, btw.

Yea, wrong was the incorrect choice of words. I was just trying to point out that when you stated the effects were covering your "shitty" playing that most likely your playing is fine, its the improper use of some of your effects that are giving you the "shits".

[Fragle]

no, it's the other way round. when using the FX on the pod my playing sounds fine, it's just when i play dry that things start to go downhill. actually, i don't even have to use delay to get things back to "normal" again, a hint of reverb is sufficient.
and as i said, i don't think my playing actually sounds like this, because as mentioned above it's fine when using the tube amps.
maybe the pod highlights some "weird" harmonics or frequencies that don't come through when using a tube amp, like the pick attack "squeak" etc, because i think that's the main problem right there, the pick attack just doesn't sound right when using the pod. maybe that's the reason why it's fine with fx, because the reverb mellows out the "unnatural" pick attack.

[Twisteramps]

+1 on tapped tempo delay. I use it a lot, but before I tapped the tempo in live I wouldn't use any. I don't like the way your delays when they are fixed and not tapped in clash and jump out. I generally use a dotted 8th note delay, and am currently using a Line6 Echo Pro. It also does spillover, is stereo in and out and pretty much kicks ass on the boss offerings at the same price or higher, imho.

[jgcable]

+1 on tapped tempo delay. I use it a lot, but before I tapped the tempo in live I wouldn't use any. I don't like the way your delays when they are fixed and not tapped in clash and jump out. I generally use a dotted 8th note delay, and am currently using a Line6 Echo Pro. It also does spillover, is stereo in and out and pretty much kicks ass on the boss offerings at the same price or higher, imho.

The G-Major spills too.

[jgcable]

no, it's the other way round. when using the FX on the pod my playing sounds fine, it's just when i play dry that things start to go downhill. actually, i don't even have to use delay to get things back to "normal" again, a hint of reverb is sufficient.
and as i said, i don't think my playing actually sounds like this, because as mentioned above it's fine when using the tube amps.
maybe the pod highlights some "weird" harmonics or frequencies that don't come through when using a tube amp, like the pick attack "squeak" etc, because i think that's the main problem right there, the pick attack just doesn't sound right when using the pod. maybe that's the reason why it's fine with fx, because the reverb mellows out the "unnatural" pick attack.

I think that is actually the biggest problem some players have with modelers. They certainly feel different than tube amps.
I can honestly say that I can feel the valves opening and closing or breathing or whatever you want to call it when I play a tube amp.
The amp I prefer to play out of is my Carvin X60 which is EL34's and Telefunken 12AX7a's. I throw a tube screamer in front of it and I am as happy as a clam. The amp feels alive to me. Unfortunately, its not the tone I need for the bands I am in. I have been doing alot of a/b'ing between my Soldano rack system and my Vetta. Good thing I have both because I need them.
My GT-6 along with its own rack system is another great rig. I am so good at programming the GT-6 I can dial in complex tones without even putting much thought into it.
I love amps. What sucks for me currently is I have way more guitars than amps and that sucks when your an amp whore.
There is a definate place for modelers, SS and tube amps. I am just thankful I have a selection to play through. At this point though.. if I had to get rid of everything and just keep one amp I would keep the Vetta for sure. It blows me away everytime I play through it. I wish all you guys who never heard one dialed in correctly could come over and play through mine. Maybe one day.

[Inearthed]

Inearthed, what setup are you using live if you don't mind me asking?

Sure, sorry I missed this earlier...

Band 1 (just high gain)
5150 -> Marshall 1960A/1960B

Band 2
5150 -> GMajor -> Mesa Cab (old rig)
Dual Rectifier -> GMajor -> Mesa cab (new rig, haven't used live yet)

Clean w/Delay / Reverb / Chorus to give it a weird effect heavy sound
Rhythm (dry)
Lead (same as Rhythm plus some 'verb and a hint of delay)

Might incorporate more effects, really just depends on how the new material starts shaping up.