Don't F* with VHT.

[Norton]

I respect that circuit board

[jgcable]

That statement would be even cooler it it was true. Unfortunately.... its not.

[Norton]

That statement would be even cooler it it was true. Unfortunately.... its not.

How do do you know that?

[Joe_Steeler]

I love it.
Funny how the man devotes is life to the craft, sells thousands upon thousands of amps, his amps are highly regarded and used by several professionals that their livelihood depends on the way they sound and yet.... self professed experts put him down.

Life goes on... go Stevie.

[jgcable]

How do do you know that?

Simple bro.

High temp teflon wire is better.
Point to point and eyelet (turret board) construction is certainly better. Most companies no longer do it because it costs too much.
Ceramic tube sockets are the best. Most companies don't used them because they are expensive and not as easy to work with.

I bet the Korean, Indonesean, Chinese, Japanese or Malaysian based company that makes VHT's PC boards doesn't even know what they are printing on the boards.
Do they have PC board mounted pots? If so... do they also print that PC mounted pots are better than flying lead style?

If I had and amp with a traced PC board with a disclaimer on it like that I would return the amp and tell them to stick it up their lily white asses.
I see no humour in pointing out their own short comings and cost savings. It would be different if they were inexpensive amps, but they aren't.

[siggy14]

There is nothing wrong with PCB if it is done right with proper material.

IF a pcb is done right it will be more accurate and just as strong as P2P, however it is never good to put the sockets or pots on the board. Also ceramic is a better socket.

[jgcable]

There is nothing wrong with PCB if it is done right with proper material.

IF a pcb is done right it will be more accurate and just as strong as P2P, however it is never good to put the sockets or pots on the board. Also ceramic is a better socket.

Hey Siggy, I wasn't saying that PCB wasn't ok. I have had several great tube amps with PCB design. I am just saying that if you had to choose.... which one would YOU want.
nuff said....

Randall from Mesa has a great article talking about the advantages of having as many hand built components in an amp. He talked about personal pride and the way the builders connect with hand wiring an amp. Its a cool article.

[siggy14]

I admire Randall, but at the same time loaf his arrogance. He is a great amp designer but at the same time he is very one sided on his views. I really hate his view on fixed bias, amps need to be able to be biased.

Certain parts of a amp do better with P2P, anything with high voltage, but PCB will be more accurate when it comes to signal.

Basically that is why old marshalls are hit and miss, depends who wired it and where they put the trace wires and if they made them to long, to short etc.. Every little bit of that effects tone.

So if i had my choice i would take a amp that is a combination of both with good quality parts and thick and strong PCB boards. They would have fly leads on the pots and the tube sockets would be ceramic and also be hand wired and mounted to the chassis.

Of course these are just like mesa amps, however the fixed cold bias is what turns me off on them. I have been thinking of getting one and getting the bias mod.

I am afraid to open my uber to see what is in there, but i am assuming it is build strong as hell.

Hey Siggy, I wasn't saying that PCB wasn't ok. I have had several great tube amps with PCB design. I am just saying that if you had to choose.... which one would YOU want.
nuff said....

Randall from Mesa has a great article talking about the advantages of having as many hand built components in an amp. He talked about personal pride and the way the builders connect with hand wiring an amp. Its a cool article.

[jgcable]

I admire Randall, but at the same time loaf his arrogance. He is a great amp designer but at the same time he is very one sided on his views. I really hate his view on fixed bias, amps need to be able to be biased.

Certain parts of a amp do better with P2P, anything with high voltage, but PCB will be more accurate when it comes to signal.

Basically that is why old marshalls are hit and miss, depends who wired it and where they put the trace wires and if they made them to long, to short etc.. Every little bit of that effects tone.

So if i had my choice i would take a amp that is a combination of both with good quality parts and thick and strong PCB boards. They would have fly leads on the pots and the tube sockets would be ceramic and also be hand wired and mounted to the chassis.

Of course these are just like mesa amps, however the fixed cold bias is what turns me off on them. I have been thinking of getting one and getting the bias mod.

I am afraid to open my uber to see what is in there, but i am assuming it is build strong as hell.

Marshalls were hit and miss in the old days because when they would run out of components they had "acceptable" substitute values they could use as not to slow down the production.

[siggy14]

no even before that, marshall from day one has been hit or miss, hard to find to plexi's that will sound exactly alike. Just the way it is when you are doing trace wires, change a little bit of resistance and it effects the tone.

Marshalls were hit and miss in the old days because when they would run out of components they had "acceptable" substitute values they could use as not to slow down the production.

[Infernal Death]

An interesting read on this topic:

http://www.bogneramplification.com/Pcboard.htm

Flo

[Cleveland Metal]

Plus they used components of varying tolerances (+/- 10+%)... If enough components lean in one direction or the other, that amp will be different sounding than one that leans the other way.

I always wondered about geting a magik one. And, analzing EACH part for value, and duplicate it with mil spec stuff. Then you could probably get close to reproducing consistant ones.

[toejam]

loaf his arrogance

I think you mean loathe.

[Infernal Death]

Personally i think if done right pcb's are superior to p2p. You can layout ground planes to get rid of unwanted noise and other things. Plus you are not dependant on the builder having a good or a bad day. It's always the same with pcb layout. Also a technician can't fuck up your wiring after a repair.
I think the talk about p2p being better is just "vintage nonsense talk". Like the people say old guitars are always better than new one.
Just think about this. In digital technique everything is done on pcbs. And this is a hell of a lot more demanding than guitar amplifiers which in terms of hifi are bottom of the food chain really.
Of course all this only applies if the pcb layout is done correctly and by someone who has experience in this stuff. If you don't follow the rules the layout can really destroy a lot.

Also JGCable i don't think companies like VHT only use pcb layouts because of them being cheaper. It's just more constistent in terms of quality. Also it's not as cheap to have an expert doing a good layout for a board.

Flo

[Endrik]

I admire Randall, but at the same time loaf his arrogance. He is a great amp designer but at the same time he is very one sided on his views.

But his arrogance is also a very good thing. He makes sure that Mesa will always be true to the form. No modeling crap or built in cheesy digital effect shit. Hey, modern technology is very cool but someone has to keep the old school vibe too. You either love or hate how Boogies sound but they are built like tanks and they last for a very long time. Wich other amp company makes so reliable amps? There's Soldano and well..... ok some smaller Europe companies whos amps cost at least 5K and that's pretty much it.