Tube amps, distortion: coarse/tight... recommendations, thoughts?

[Annah]

Okay here's my problem guys...

I've been using a JCM2000 TSL100 head and 1960a cab for the past 5 years. So far it has been great for what I've been doing, however, with IGNITOR it is turning out to have some tonal issues that are really bothering not only me, but the band.

A few weeks ago I put all new GT EL34's (rated 8) and JJ/Tesla ECC803S's (high gain) in it. The new tubes made it sound better, but they didn't solve the core problem. Here's the core problem:

Much of IGNITOR's guitar work is intricate and tight, much like Megadeth, Priest, Maiden, etc. and because of that, my tone needs to be very tight. Not necessarily über-saturated with gain (ala Triple Rectifier) but just TIGHT distortion-wise. The thing is that my TSL100 distortion seems to be very coarse - the distortion waves are kinda "gappy" if that makes any sense. I suppose if you could look at the waveform they'd be wider than what I am looking for. The effect this is having on my sound is that when I strike a note on my string the actual "strike" isn't heard instantaneously in the speakers. It's got a strange, slightly off-time or delayed feel to it. As you can imagine, in fast, intricate playing this is really screwing up the whole vibe.

Anyone here dealt with this issue? Have you got any suggestions as to what other amps I might try out? I'm not into that scooped midrange sound. What I'm after is a really tight, very strong, beefy tone that will cut through the rest of the band clearly without having to be cranked to ear-bleeding levels.

I appreciate your input! (no pun intended!)

[442w30]

Any pedals out front? This sounds crazy, but could a metalzone pedal in front smooth it out?
Sounds like you have more of a classic rock bark and you need a little more "buzz"? I thought what you were describing is what the TSL100 would offer over the JCM800 or plexi.

My immediate feeling is you want a more "iced earth" tone which would imply a triple rec or Uber.

[charvelguy]

Well, the first thing to ask would be..was this an issue before you changed the tubes? This is just my speculation on this,...I'm much more the player than the tech type but my interests have crossed the boundry due to the need to try and understand more about amps and what makes them tick.

Did you have the output sectioned rebiased when you put in new tubes? I assume they were matched as a quad from GT?

I was re-reading an article the other day from Eurotubes site ..here check this URL out on this article as it seems to address your issue in what is called 'crossover distortion'..

Essentially, it sounds as tho your power tubes are starved of the amount of milliamps it needs to keep the waveforms from crossing over. If milliamps are to low.. it keeps the response from sounding 'tight'

http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-k.htm

Just under the third segment there is a mention and then a rather lengthy description on this for a 5150.

[charvelguy]

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[Dreamland_Rebel]

for Ignitor, turn all the mid shift buttons and contour crap off on the marshall. (make it sound like an old marshall) and get a boss SD-1. with the SD-1 (yellow) dime the level and use a minimal amound of gain. then adjust the tone control to taste.

the SD-1 set like this is a clean boost that will overload the preamp tubes and smooth out the distortion to make it sound like you want it to.

you'll love it.

[MBreinin]

Mk III Boogie.

Uberschall.

Mike

[Inazone]

I'd go with the pedal-boost suggestion as an easy and inexpensive option. If I remember right, Marty Friedman used a Metal Zone to boost his Blue Voodoo in Megadeth, or at least that was the popular rumor at the time.

I use a boost for my old Peavey VTM head to tighten up the distortion, although I do it a little different, dialing the amp's pre gain just to the point of breaking up (single-channel amp) and use a pedal to push it the rest of the way. The amp's distortion gets pretty fuzzy when cranked, but running it completely clean with the pedal handling all the distortion lacks midrange "oomph" on leads. Letting the amp and pedal share the gain "responsibility" has worked out very well.

[horns666]

I like my tone like I like my woman..

TIGHT!!!

[horns666]

Seriusly..I couldn't work with my JCM 2000 DSL..I played liked retard thru it..we didn't get along at all..

It sounded like ass when John and I tried to mess with it for hours..

But some folks better than us sound fine with them..

I like my older Marshall rig and my Uber..it's as tight as I'm going to get..that I found.

I will never "need" another amp.

[MBreinin]

Sometimes I like it tight and focused, and sometimes I like it a bit looser. That is what makes my little Witchdoctor so cool..I can choose between the S.S. and tube rectifier, and I can also go half power.

I usually push it with a Bad Monkey as a clean boost...even though it doesn't need any push.

Mike

[charvelguy]

I used to think I was really getting messed with as sometimes a Marshall can sound great one week or even by night and the next.. I'd be going wth? The Guys who tech'd the amp probably thought I was nuts trying to describe why some nights it sounded and responded awesome and others just ok..

[lynchfan6]

I can relate....I used a TSL 100 head for years for gigging. My singer always said the same thing,,,,the waveform would be with gaps in it. I agree. I was never quite content with the Marshall gain. A bit chainsaw. So about a year and a half ago , I blindly bought a Soldano hr-50+. I did this without ever playing a Soldano before. WHen I plugged in, I was floored. The gain was so smooth , warm, liquidy. I immediately sold the Marshall. I eventually sold my HR-50+ for a brand new SLO100, and all of my sonic dreams have come true. I am still amazed every time I plug in. I would highly recommend trying SOldano........simply amazing overdrive. THink Van Halen "for unlawful" album. Or scorpions "crazy world" album,,,,and many Ratt albums. Lynch played them a lot too. My immediate words were "liquid tone factor." Soldano's drip with tone and sing.

[Annah]

Thanks guys. It's nice to hear (lynchfan6) that I'm not the only one going through this with the TSL100. I used to love that amp but lately it just drives me crazy. Liquidy sounds pretty sweet, and sounds like what I'm after, as long as it's liquidy and TIGHT (horns... you've gotta love THAT statment! HAH!).

Ya know... charvelguy you did bring up a good point about the biasing. When I installed the EL34's I did bias them myself. The official Marshall Service Bulletin for biasing the TSL100 stated that 90mV was where they should be set. But an amp guy at a local shop told me I shouldn't bias them too hot because they'd burn out sooner. So I set them both at 85mV. Now I'm wondering what the thing would sound like if I push them up to about 95mV or so. Sounds like pushing the bias up would be similar to pushing the signal with a gain boosting pedal.

Tomorrow night we'll be rehearsing again (two shows this weekend, one in Dallas, one in Austin) so I'll go early and bump the bias up to see what that does before trying something else. I've got a SansAmp GT2 that I can try, and I still have my MPX G2, which has some really sweet analog distortions. I've been pondering just using the TSL100 as a power amp and using the distortion from the G2, but I'll try the bias adjustment first.

On my way to check out the Soldano line... I'm surely not married to my Marshall!

[yabba]

if you want _really_ tight: check out VHT!

I'd agree with the boosting option for something much easier and cheaper though. running slightly less gain from the amp, and using a boost pedal (an overdrive pedal with the gain turned all the way down and the volumn turned all the way up) is a great way to tighten up an amp.

[charvelguy]

yeah.. they'll burn out a little quicker, but a colder bias tends to sound harsher in my ears. You should change outputs about every year if you are gigging often anyways.