Tube amps, distortion: coarse/tight... recommendations, thoughts?

[horns666]

Firebird V ..Ubers and VHT are awesome, but wasn't the Uber "heavier"..??

I think so..

I like VHTs..but I immediately start playing VH when I play them.

The dude I bought the Uber from ..his freind had a VHT..I really liked it..but definitely thought the Uber was much more "Crunchier" for modern metal stuff..ie Iced Earth, Nevermore, Arch Enemy territory..

[Firebird V]

The uber was heavier,crunchier, more sizzle. But the VHT was tighter. You could always get more gain with eq / overdrive pedals etc... That is funny that you play VH with the VHT. That is what I did.... lol. It does do old Eddie great.

The Uber ALMOST made me sell my last rack slo head. I think about that head alot actually. The slo just works for me I guess... If I could find one a little nicked up at a better price I might jump....

In any case. I really did dig it. Much more than just a metal head.

[Twisteramps]

I still say VHT. You can get a used 50/CL for not a whole lot more than your TSL would sell for. The 50/CL doesn't have a DEDICATED clean channel, but you can dial in something that would work ok if you had to. both channels can have nice high gain tones.

I heard the following amps a few years ago in Texas w/Sully at a HC ampfest... here's the order I would have put them in for how good I thought they sounded... my opinion ONLY, so everyone keep your panties wad-free:

1) Soldano Avenger. It killed. Only reason why I didn't get one and still won't is because it is one channel and no fx loop. Those are deal breakers for me.
2) Bogner Shiva. not quite as high gain as the others, but had a really nice sound - like a super JCM800. Awesome clean too.
3) Uber - it sounded really good, but (apologies to Bill) the Avenger slapped it around and made Uber it's bitch. Could have been how it was dialled in though, but the Avenger just ruled.
4) Bogner XTC - I played through a different one that I really liked, this one was stiffer but not in a good way. Was hard to get smooth sustain out of it, and for the money, wasn't a good deal.
5) ENGL Powerball - I'm just not a powerball guy. I don't like the voicing - while a VHT is tight like a solid state amp but still sounds good, the powerball is pretty tight but sounds like a big solid state amp. Apologies to the ENGL fans.

My VHT 50/CL had plenty of gain on tap, never used a boost pedal with it, and it sounded great. I'd classify it as just a bit less than a 5150 gain-wise, but it was useable gain - it never mushed out, and was the loudest 50-watt head I ever owned.

I've also played a VHT UL at length, and I prefer the 50/CL since it sounds aggressive as hell and gets fantastic tones for a lot less. If I had to have a clean tone and two other channels, I'd save up for an UL if I was playing metal.

Oh, and I love SLOs (And my clone) but for tight super-metal I don't know if one would be right. There is a little sag to them - but after playing a VHT, every tube amp sounds saggy.

Pete

[horns666]

Really Pete, Did you max the gain on the Uber..That is the ONLY way I get my tone..anything less than maxed, it loses all it's coolness for me.

after nearly 5 years tweaking..it's still maxed, it's glued there..

I need to try an Avenger..I see that GC is a "boutique" dealer now, and carry Soldano..ain't that sumthin'!!..

[Adam]

ok, i didn't feel like reading the whole thread, but i just got to reply to this post:

"As for tightness, stay away from Framus. They're almost as loose as Mesa and Recent Marshall amps. Engl is a good choice, and so is Splawn. The other guitarist in my band uses an Uberschall which is an awesome amp, but it still has some of that coarseness you're hearing in your Marshall."

BS. the framus cobra is the tightest and clearest amp i've ever played through, absolutely unforgiving. i can assure you that any looseness you might experience when playing a cobra is due to user error - read: too much bass. my main amp used to be a 5150 boosted with an overdrive of some sort (check out kreator's enemy of god to get an idea of how this setup sounds), but when put up against the cobra it pales. the only thing i'm not *quite* satisfied with is the low mid voicing - i like my mids rather high.
but then again, i've never played a vht, maybe i don't know what super tight means

as for the marshall, use the crunch channel for rhythm, all the switches and gimmicks turned off. i did like 2 dozen shows with a dsl100 through a 1960 A/B fullstack, going straight in, and never had a problem with the amp being too loose. keep the mids and bass high, like anywhere from noon to full on, presence off or barely on, same thing for the treble. also, don't crank the gain, even on the crunch channel. if it's not gainy enough, or too dark sounding, you're not playing loud enough!!! trust me on that one.
btw, this was for thrash/death metal with lots of tight single note riffs.

Sorry - You misunderstand me completely.

I wasn't talking about pick response or tracking speed - the things most people refer to when they're talking about "tightness" - I was talking about the perceived "smootheness" or "choppyness" of the tone (re: the original post).

Some amps, especially (IMO) those running 6L6s, sound more broken-up than others.

Think of a chord coming out of an amp like a movie clip with a framerate. When the framerate is slow, you can detect pauses or gaps between the individual frames that make up the clip. The quicker the framerate, the more difficult it is to detect those gaps.

I (and the thread-starter) can hear those gaps in the distortion of certain amps. It's like a light-switch being flicked on and off, and some amps flick it faster or slower than others.

For example, Mesa Rectifiers tend to be the slowest I've come across, while say a Marshall plexi is so fast it seems like the "light" is just on all the time, with no gaps at all.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[Annah]

Okay, so all technical mumbo-jumbo aside ... Last night the first thing I did before rehearsal was bump up to 96mV or .96 or whatever. All I know is that I had the right settings on the meter and I set it correctly. By the way, there is one mini-pot for each pair of tubes. Each pair is matched, so I suppose biasing matches the pairs to each other. One needs a tiny slotted screwdriver to adjust them, and alligator clips on the meter leads to the little connector on the amp helps. Also, you have to pull the whole back cover plate off to get to these things. Four screws, no biggie.

So how did that affect the tone? HOLY FUKKIN SHIT!!! It took care of the problem. No more sag in tone. No more laggy/gappy sound. The rig again crunches like nothing else!

This is without the BBE Sonic Maximizer, which I'm now pondering returning to Guitar Center. I'm using only the Crunch channel with the "Deep" and "Mid Boost" buttons off. I haven't even tried the Lead channel yet, but I have a feeling it's going to provide searing lead tone. I have to fix my footswitch cord, then I'll be using it to switch for leads. Damn I can't wait for that! The band was blown away by the improvement in tone as well. So now I'm totally thrilled with my TSL100 again. Thank goodness.

I still plan on checking out some VHT and Soldano amps, but I think I'll be okay for a while now. Thanks for all your help, especially the mention of the bias adjustment. After putting all new tubes in it, I totally forgot that I had under-biased the EL34's... thanks to the amp guy at Guitar Resurrection. He suggested .75!!! That's three times now that I've had negative or lame experiences with Guitar Resurrection (which is here in Austin). Shame, because they sell some of those higher-end amps. But I won't be going there for anything, at all... ever.

Anyway, thanks. If anyone's gonna be in Dallas/Ft. Worth tomorrow night. We're playing at the new Engine Room. Would love to see ya/meet ya.

Annah

[horns666]

I just orderd these at $121 for a matching set of 6..

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...e_1908_5011261

Please, excuse me, I'm still dizzy from the sticker shock..but I was told I'd like 'em..well see..

[Soloist1]

Just make sure the plates of the tubes don't turn red while your playing. If they do just back the bias off some until they don't anymore.

[charvelguy]

yeah.. red glow from base is bad...major danger, I always think of a carb that is set to lean and the exhaust manifold starts to turn red.
Blue tube glow is ok..I really dig that look sometimes...like staring into a flame.

I think stores/tech shops recommend colder settings or even below avg settings depending on tube type and amp make so they aren't liable for electronic issues or tubes burning out premature.
I find at times when asking about going out of spec... a tech or repair store are more likely concerned with the amp longevity or their repair lasting and not stressing components past the 30 day mark than they are about tone... or it'll be about compromise and tube life. Hey.. if ya got a Porsche 911 turbo..you ain't thinkin solely about mindin the speed limit or insurance costs.

Glad it worked out.

[Twisteramps]

What you're watching out for is red plating - the plate is the big ol' grey thing in the middle of the tube. It could show red at the middle, or bottom... just look out for any spots. If it's red your tube could be dying. One thing to remember too - higher bias settings can sound better - but tube life will be decreased a lot. Be sure and keep a spare set of power tubes around.

One other thing - normally accepted bias is 70% of plate dissipation - the way to calculate it involves knowing your plate voltage, so 45ma or whatever is never a standard setting. It's going to vary from amp model to amp model, and even from amp to amp. There is a huge range of acceptable bias - basically if you're not damaging the tubes you're ok. My Mesa ractifier was running about 18 ma and could have run twice that with no problem! Many manufacturers and techs will bias a little cold because your tubes will last much longer.

Glad you figured it out, but I think if you play a VHT you're going to be selling that Marshall.

Pete

[Shawn Lutz]

Just for the record I bought my VHT 50 CL w/EQ+REV for $900. THat was the cheapest I've seen them go for but then again I haven't been looking in a while.

Check out the Splawn QR's too..not near as tight as a VHT but sounds like it would be a good fit for your band Annah

[Annah]

Cool, thanks. I'll keep an eye on those tubes.... watching for the red. Hopefully they'll be fine. Still wanna find a VHT to try out. That's gonna be tricky, I'm afraid.

[charvelguy]

Pete's the resident amp builder...he knows best. Excuse my silly ignoramus remark.. 'course I would forget the parts of a tube. ..gee, when I was well.. younger..they still had tube testers in hardware stores.
I even used to study diagrams of these things. I should know tube construction forwards and back in my sleep.

If green smoke comes starts pouring out of the back...please don't sue us...

http://www.vac-amps.com/owning_tubes.html

[Fragle]

Sorry - You misunderstand me completely.

I wasn't talking about pick response or tracking speed - the things most people refer to when they're talking about "tightness" - I was talking about the perceived "smootheness" or "choppyness" of the tone (re: the original post).

Some amps, especially (IMO) those running 6L6s, sound more broken-up than others.

Think of a chord coming out of an amp like a movie clip with a framerate. When the framerate is slow, you can detect pauses or gaps between the individual frames that make up the clip. The quicker the framerate, the more difficult it is to detect those gaps.

I (and the thread-starter) can hear those gaps in the distortion of certain amps. It's like a light-switch being flicked on and off, and some amps flick it faster or slower than others.

For example, Mesa Rectifiers tend to be the slowest I've come across, while say a Marshall plexi is so fast it seems like the "light" is just on all the time, with no gaps at all.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

i don't notice any of the "gaps" you're mentioning....all i know is that after getting used to the framus i just don't enjoy playing either my 5150 or my jcm800 anymore. the framus has a very hi-fi sound if that makes any sense, it really highlights the fuzzy sound of other guitar amps. you can hear every note even at high gain settings, harmonics just jump off the fretboard...you can even hear the sonic difference of playing a lick e.g. on the G string instead of the B string - try that with a marshall!

[Cleveland Metal]

Just buy this... Get lost in the knobs and all those Marshall troubles will fade away...