Modeling amp's don't cut it live

[jtr]

Last friday I ran sound for a battle of the bands . Most of the guitarist had modeling amps(all 100 watts or more ) of one kind or another and I had to have them all turn up because they just don't project well enough. The one exception was a 50 Marshall I had to pull it way down on the board . Having never even played through a modeling amp I was shocked to say the least. They sound huge and very loud when your next to it but are very hard to mic because of there lack of projection.They might be good for bedroom and practice but that about it .

[jgcable]

Last friday I ran sound for a battle of the bands . Most of the guitarist had modeling amps(all 100 watts or more ) of one kind or another and I had to have them all turn up because they just don't project well enough. The one exception was a 50 Marshall I had to pull it way down on the board . Having never even played through a modeling amp I was shocked to say the least. They sound huge and very loud when your next to it but are very hard to mic because of there lack of projection.They might be good for bedroom and practice but that about it .

I am licking my chops on this one.

What modeling amps are you talking about specifically?
I have several super high gain high end tube amps. Namely.. 5150, 5150II, DSL100 and a Soldano SLO100 Clone.
My Vetta HD is easily louder than any of these amps and in a live application its not even a fair fight.

Let me tell you what you ACTUALLY experienced...
You were faced with modeling amps that were set up at bedroom volumes and brought to the show and turned up. This means they had several things against them.
1. too much gain. It is very common for players who use modeling amps
2. too much effects.
3. scooped or not enough mins. Again.. its common.
4. patches were not created at the actual volume level they were to be used at.
5. maybe they were low end modeling amps. 100w isn't very many watts when you are talking about a SS modeling amp. My Vetta is 300w.

Now.. onto the Marshall. Marshall amps have one characteristic that is the signature of the Marshall tone. MIDRANGE.
Midrange is what you actually hear live.
The bottom end is bass and kick drum and the high end is cymbals, snare and some of the vocals.
Midrange is where us guitar players live.
My guess is the player who was using the Marshall actually had it dialed in correctly.
This is why guitar players love the Marshall tone so much. This is the same reason that soundmen love the 5150 live. Its so easy to place it in a live and loud mix.
If I brought my Vetta to that show you would be saying
"somebody told me that there was a 50w Marshall on this stage somewhere but I never actually heard it"

[sandbag]

yeah a lot of people like to crank the bass and high and take out the mid for live application. Even more people don't change their settings when going to play live.

[jtr]

I' m talking projection and being able to capture the sound on a mic. Your amp might be incrediblely loud on stage but are you to loud to hear what going on around you. Balance and Dynamic seems to be a lost art form as well as playing together and not at each other. Your amp I take it is top of the line and with the other tube amps you own you know quality and tone. This is more for the younger guys who are looking for something that works live and not end up going through several amps and $ because this amp sounds good in one situation can't cover them all. To give them a idea that just because this amp comes with all the bells and whistles and there is a good reason that tube amp cost more and will last you a life time .

[skorb]

jtr, John is correct, either those guys weren't using Vettas or they had them dialed in wrong.

but then again, the Vetta isn't even in the same ballpark as other modelers.

I've done two gigs with my 100 watt Vetta combo and at the first show all I heard was You're too loud.

[jgcable]

I' m talking projection and being able to capture the sound on a mic. Your amp might be incrediblely loud on stage but are you to loud to hear what going on around you. Balance and Dynamic seems to be a lost art form as well as playing together and not at each other. Your amp I take it is top of the line and with the other tube amps you own you know quality and tone. This is more for the younger guys who are looking for something that works live and not end up going through several amps and $ because this amp sounds good in one situation can't cover them all. To give them a idea that just because this amp comes with all the bells and whistles and there is a good reason that tube amp cost more and will last you a life time .

You are correct. A modeling amp is great for the younger players because its a great inspiring tool to keep them practicing. The problem is that because they are younger and inexperienced they don't know how to dial one in live. They just assume their home tones will be good live.
For them.. purchasing a 5150 or a Marshall JCM2000 is a much safer choice live. Its pretty hard to make one of those amps sound bad live.
In that respect.. I agree with you.

[jgcable]

jtr, John is correct, either those guys weren't using Vettas or they had them dialed in wrong.

but then again, the Vetta isn't even in the same ballpark as other modelers.

I've done two gigs with my 100 watt Vetta combo and at the first show all I heard was You're too loud.

Me too but I also get.. "your guitar tone is killer" and "it sounds just like the record" along with "I could hear every note of your guitar solo's".

Now.. some of you would say that sounding just like the record isn't very original BUT.. I am in an original band and I used the Vetta to record many of the rhythm and solo tracks so the statement "sounds just like the record" is a good thing.

[Vlover]

Dont forget to take into consideration the House sound guys talents and the acoustics of the room....and how much weed you smoked and beer you drank on top of that as well.

Bedroom Level and Stage level require re-eq'ing and turning the gain down so you get that precussive attack that 100% gain takes away

[PowerTube]

Another myth I believed for a while was the classic, "POD's suck through an amp."

One night a couple of years ago, I had some free time and decided to test this out. I ran my POD 2.3 across the Marshall JCM800 2210 and started trying different settings. Sure enough, it sucked for about an hour and a half.

That's when I found the magic tweak. Just for the grins of it, I turned the A.I.R. switch from "Amp" back to "Direct," turning the cabinet modeling back on. So I went through the different cabinet models until I finally hit that magic one. Are you ready for this? 1 x 8! I kid you not. This was while playing across a 4x12 with Celestions. With that setup, it sounded as sweet as any Flextone I've ever heard at bedroom volumes.

[jgcable]

Another myth I believed for a while was the classic, "POD's suck through an amp."

One night a couple of years ago, I had some free time and decided to test this out. I ran my POD 2.3 across the Marshall JCM800 2210 and started trying different settings. Sure enough, it sucked for about an hour and a half.

That's when I found the magic tweak. Just for the grins of it, I turned the A.I.R. switch from "Amp" back to "Direct," turning the cabinet modeling back on. So I went through the different cabinet models until I finally hit that magic one. Are you ready for this? 1 x 8! I kid you not. This was while playing across a 4x12 with Celestions. With that setup, it sounded as sweet as any Flextone I've ever heard at bedroom volumes.

Great story!!! You never know what cabinet model will sound the best until you try them. I use 4 x 12 sims sometimes and 2 x 12 sims. A few of my patches have a 2 x 12 mixed with a 4 x 10.
With decent speaker cabinets and good cabinet modeling you can really get creative and find some really cool live tones.

[Cleveland Metal]

I guess Micheal Romeo and Jeff Loomis can't dial a Vetta/POD in then? hehe... Cuz their projection sucked badly...

I could give my hypothesis on why the modellers do that, but it would fall on deaf ears...

[skorb]

Me too but I also get.. "your guitar tone is killer" and "it sounds just like the record" along with "I could hear every note of your guitar solo's".

Now.. some of you would say that sounding just like the record isn't very original BUT.. I am in an original band and I used the Vetta to record many of the rhythm and solo tracks so the statement "sounds just like the record" is a good thing.

agreed.
but I was just pointing out that anyone saying they modelers can't cut though the mix didn't hear mine that night. actually the whole band was too loud and I had to turn up to compensate. I got my levels settled down perfect the second gig.

[Twisteramps]

I had no issues with my vetta projecting when it was miked. Just because Romeo and Loomis are monster players doesn't mean they can dial in a modelling amp. I used to walk out to FOH when I used the Vetta, and I heard it through the PA just fine.

Pete

[chrisolson]

JTR - what band were you working? I've seen lots of TC bands, and one of the best ones I've EVER heard all used PODs through various amplifiers.

[chrisolson]

Great story!!! You never know what cabinet model will sound the best until you try them. I use 4 x 12 sims sometimes and 2 x 12 sims. A few of my patches have a 2 x 12 mixed with a 4 x 10.
With decent speaker cabinets and good cabinet modeling you can really get creative and find some really cool live tones.

Shut the cabinet sims OFF!! That's when these things sound best...