Which Attenuator - THD or Weber?

[broken_fusion]

I have a Fender Princeton chorus in the bedroom that is great for practicing. I have two tube half stacks in my basement that i don't use anymore because i don't gig anymore but i still would like to crank them once in a while up within reason without chasing the family out.About the Elliot Tone Dial that is linked above, I have heard from others that it is basically a volume pot in the effects loop. Is that going to achieve the same thing as an attenuator? I wouldn't think that a volume control in the loop would get all the tubes humming.

Most of the time damage occurs when the output is working too hard into a load that isn't quite as reactive as it expects. The output transformer lives in a push-pull world and "sees" some of that current coming back. Builds up unhealthy eddie currents that stresses the entire output section.

I learned a lesson a long time ago. when i first bought my Marshall 100 watt head about 20 years ago i didnt have a 4/12 cabinet. I ran it through my home stereo from out of the DI output. I had the amp cranked and the stereo turned down pretty low. That was probably the thickest,creamiest distortion i ever had. It didn't last long though.

[jgcable]

Sorry, I'm biased.

I've been building exactly what the doctor ordered for low volume and good tone. Building, tweaking, swapping tube types, tweaking and building some more. One thing I can't get past is speaker size. No matter how low the volume, the amp still needs at least a single 12" to push adequate low end for my taste.
My criteria: Tube tone! That's the sound of smooth (not buzzy) saturation and touch sensitivity that talks back like a cranked stack. Modellers are great, but not my taste. They simply don't act very responsive.
Next one will have a tube driven effects loop. I'd like to do a channel switcher, but I'm not quite "there" just yet. Too many tone-robbing components to deal with.

Attenuators do work, but not if someone is trying to get bedroom volume out of a 50 or 100 watt performance head. Too much choke=bad tone.
Most of the time damage occurs when the output is working too hard into a load that isn't quite as reactive as it expects. The output transformer lives in a push-pull world and "sees" some of that current coming back. Builds up unhealthy eddie currents that stresses the entire output section.

Keep in mind.. you are not the norm. You are an amp builder. You can build and tweak and build and tweak until you get a tube amp perfect. The rest of the 99.9% of players out there have to run with what they get at the store. Most of the time a bedroom guitarist is trying to tame a 50-100w tube amp and get it to sound great at whisper to bedroom levels. I remember one JCF member who was trying to get his full stack Dual Rectifier to sound good at a low enough volume as not to wake up his sleeping infant child in the next room. There are also members here who are students sharing a room with somebody and expecting to attenuate their Bogner Ubershall down to levels not to wake up their roommate but yet still sound great. Ain't gonna happen.
What you are doing is building boutique low wattage tube amps. You don't have to do too much attenation to get one to sound good. Try that with a Marshall #1959 or a 2204. Some modeling amps are very responsive... especially the Boss GT-8/10. I have a low end Behringer LX112 modeling combo that I use at home that sounds absolutely fantastic at low levels.

[jgcable]

I have a Fender Princeton chorus in the bedroom that is great for practicing. I have two tube half stacks in my basement that i don't use anymore because i don't gig anymore but i still would like to crank them once in a while up within reason without chasing the family out.About the Elliot Tone Dial that is linked above, I have heard from others that it is basically a volume pot in the effects loop. Is that going to achieve the same thing as an attenuator? I wouldn't think that a volume control in the loop would get all the tubes humming.

You are correct, its just a volume control but my point is that if you are trying to tame a 100w amp so that you could get bedroom volumes its a viable option and IMHO.. a better one than an attenuator.
BTW... I am a big fan of the Princeton Chorus for a practice amp. Its an amp that sounds GREAT at low levels.

[jgcable]

I've tried a few (not all) attenuators and quite like the Weber MASS 150, which i've used for a few years now. Has a less thin / fuzzy tone at lower attenuation settings than others I've used, and has two knobs to attenuate different frequencies, which is nice too. The weber units use speaker motors, so they behave more like speakers to an amplifier's output section (not exactly the same, of course).

For very low volume playing, I turn the MASS all the way down and run the line out through reverb into an SS poweramp, which controls the overall volume. I can get a nice tone from a 100 watt amp that way without waking the neighbors. For whatever reason, this sounds better to me than just setting the attenuator really low straight into a cabinet.

yep... thats the work around. I believe that EVH recorded VH1 somewhat like that. Complicated but it works.

[Radiohead]

Hey all thanks for the Posts,

The info has been very informative. I ended up using a few of the suggestions posted.

I run an eq in the loop and I lowered the volume through the eg. I also ended up getting a 4 ohm Hot Plate. I keep it at -12db and set the head volume to 4+. I play the Legacy loud. Just under the need to ear plugs. It has a good tone, but it is clearly too much amp!

BTW, Carvin is launching the Legacy II at Namm. 3 channel amp with switchable 25/50/100 watts output and has some type of built in attenuation. Ben Fargen was part of the design team.

[hippietim]

Attenuators don't kill your amp per se. Keep in mind what you are doing though. You are cranking the amp! That is what will shorten the life of your tubes, caps, etc.

[Partial @ Marshall]

Sorry, I'm biased.

I've been building exactly what the doctor ordered for low volume and good tone. Building, tweaking, swapping tube types, tweaking and building some more. One thing I can't get past is speaker size. No matter how low the volume, the amp still needs at least a single 12" to push adequate low end for my taste.
My criteria: Tube tone! That's the sound of smooth (not buzzy) saturation and touch sensitivity that talks back like a cranked stack. Modellers are great, but not my taste. They simply don't act very responsive.
Next one will have a tube driven effects loop. I'd like to do a channel switcher, but I'm not quite "there" just yet. Too many tone-robbing components to deal with.

Attenuators do work, but not if someone is trying to get bedroom volume out of a 50 or 100 watt performance head. Too much choke=bad tone.
Most of the time damage occurs when the output is working too hard into a load that isn't quite as reactive as it expects. The output transformer lives in a push-pull world and "sees" some of that current coming back. Builds up unhealthy eddie currents that stresses the entire output section.

+1 Love the 1/2 watt guytronix I built...working on a 5 watt and a 18 watt now. I also got an old lead 12 marshall "1/2 stack" (1 x 10 cab with no back) that sounds great at low volumes...solid state hmmm...weird, not great at high volume. Actually bought it for putting the guytronix head in, but having second thoughts.

[Cygnus X1]

+1 Love the 1/2 watt guytronix I built...working on a 5 watt and a 18 watt now. I also got an old lead 12 marshall "1/2 stack" (1 x 10 cab with no back) that sounds great at low volumes...solid state hmmm...weird, not great at high volume. Actually bought it for putting the guytronix head in, but having second thoughts.

Cool!
What sort of construction is the guytronix?

[Firebird V]

I have the THD and have had a few of them and always go back to those.

[Partial @ Marshall]

Cool!
What sort of construction is the guytronix?

Pretty much what ever voicing you want (stock, vox, marshall) but it also comes with Merc mags. For less than $300 it's a great deal. It's class a/b push pull, only downfall (I like class A a little more).

http://www.guytronix.com/home.html

Also building a Marshall voiced epiphone valve jr. copy. Got the Merc Mag kit for $143, some guy bought it and never used it. After reviewing the instructions, it seemed silly to put these wonderful transformers on a printed circuit board so I bought a new one from turretboards.com. Handwired epi...should be super cool. I have about $250 into the project, which is reasonable for the tone I will get out. Can't wait to hook her up to a 4x12.

[Bengal65]

I've been really pleased with the Ted Weber Mass 150. His speakers are great as well. The guy really knows what he does. Most items are built to order, but some dealers stock Weber products.

[Leo Chang]

I don't understand this, so perhaps someone can help me with this.... how is using an attenuator different from simply using a volume pedal (either in front, or in the FX loop)?

[yabba]

I don't understand this, so perhaps someone can help me with this.... how is using an attenuator different from simply using a volume pedal (either in front, or in the FX loop)?

the position in the signal chain is the important bit - an attenuator is AFTER the power section (just before the speakers, basically), so it's soaking up the power that the power tubes are putting out; allowing you to run them hotter/harder and get the tone that that provides. a volume pedal in front is justing cutting the guitar signal that hits the preamp, and a volume pedal in the loop is just cutting the signal from the preamp into the power tubes - both of those mean that your power tubes are still running low if you're playing at less-than-loud volumes.

[Cygnus X1]

I've been really pleased with the Ted Weber Mass 150. His speakers are great as well. The guy really knows what he does. Most items are built to order, but some dealers stock Weber products.

+1 for the Weber products.
I order nearly all of my amp parts from him.
His transformers are pretty sweet also.

I bought a Hammond 125ESE to put in the SEL projects, and the Weber WSE15 has more overtones for the same size tranny, at ten dollars less.

[Leo Chang]

the position in the signal chain is the important bit - an attenuator is AFTER the power section (just before the speakers, basically), so it's soaking up the power that the power tubes are putting out; allowing you to run them hotter/harder and get the tone that that provides. a volume pedal in front is justing cutting the guitar signal that hits the preamp, and a volume pedal in the loop is just cutting the signal from the preamp into the power tubes - both of those mean that your power tubes are still running low if you're playing at less-than-loud volumes.

I see, that makes sense, thanks