VHT Real Board?

[Cygnus X1]

A poke in the eye for guys who prefer hand wiring.
Funny stuff!

Is this real?

[akoch]

This is absolutely real. The VHT PCBs are this good.

The none-engineering part of the musical crowd would lust for the 'hand-wired' amps. Anyone who has any technical knowledge understands all too well, why the better amp builders go the PCB route. Not only consistency and quality, but ultimately what you can build entirely depends on technology. If someone thinks that steam engine is the way the modern transportation should look like because it is 'cool'... so be it.

VHTs sound great, and different enough to earn their place. Well they did.

Now, having said this - hand wiring does have its place: the tube sockets are better off sitting on the chassis, and hand-wired to the PCBs. To have the control components or op-amps handwired... silly.

[åron]

Hehehe.

Here's an absolutely hilarious yet informative interview with Steve Freyette demoing the Sig X.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VNaxJJ7vQs

[Cygnus X1]

"Riff Raff"

[DonP]

I'd agree that having an amp hand wired by a bunch of humans making minimum wage opens the door for mistakes. Mass production dictates automation.

But I won't PCB mount tubes ever. I don't think it's smart having all of that heater current flowing through PC traces, and what about hum? You can twist the heater wires together to reduce hum on a PCB mounted tube.

[Infernal Death]

But I won't PCB mount tubes ever. I don't think it's smart having all of that heater current flowing through PC traces, and what about hum? You can twist the heater wires together to reduce hum on a PCB mounted tube.

Well no problem having much current flow through PC traces. You just need to make em wide enough.
I guess at least the preamp tubes on many pcb-based amps are running DC. Not sure. I also like to mount the tube sockets to the chassis and wire them to the boards.
But if there would be any problems that cannot be overcome, people like Bogner and Fryette wouldn't do pcb-based amps.

In general, pcb is better if done right. Just think about it: Audio circuits are pretty non-complicated in terms of layout. Now if you look at circuits running in MHz or even GHz ranges, layouts are definitely an art to do. PCB's are necessary to do such demanding circuits. So why should they be suddenly be inferior in audio applications ?
I think the rumour that pcbs aren't as good as ptp are spread by the ptp builders to justify their expensive work.
At the end of the day it all boils down to the people doing the stuff. A bad layed-out pcb is not good and also a bad done ptp build is not good.
Bottom point is that good amps can have be either ptp or pcb-based.

Flo

[DonP]

Well no problem having much current flow through PC traces. You just need to make em wide enough.
I guess at least the preamp tubes on many pcb-based amps are running DC. Not sure. I also like to mount the tube sockets to the chassis and wire them to the boards.
But if there would be any problems that cannot be overcome, people like Bogner and Fryette wouldn't do pcb-based amps.

In general, pcb is better if done right. Just think about it: Audio circuits are pretty non-complicated in terms of layout. Now if you look at circuits running in MHz or even GHz ranges, layouts are definitely an art to do. PCB's are necessary to do such demanding circuits. So why should they be suddenly be inferior in audio applications ?
I think the rumour that pcbs aren't as good as ptp are spread by the ptp builders to justify their expensive work.
At the end of the day it all boils down to the people doing the stuff. A bad layed-out pcb is not good and also a bad done ptp build is not good.
Bottom point is that good amps can have be either ptp or pcb-based.

Flo

You sound like you know what you are talking about.

DC heater current for a quad of EL34's (my DSL100 for example) would be a massive undertaking. Just too much current flowing in those heaters.

I never said PCB's were bad in audio or digital - I think they are a bad idea for mounting tubes. I don't care who's doing it. Marshall has had huge issues with PCB mounted tubes overheating in combos. Thermal runaway and tubes frying. I'll pass.

Yes, there is a lot of PTP hype to justify the cost.

IMO, I will use PTP because my circuits are experimental and I need to easily tweek stuff.

I've made amps with circuit boards back in the early 90s because I didn't know any better back then and thought that must be the way to make circuit boards. I used that amp today. But it doesn't have tubes mounted to the PCB.

[Grandturk]

If someone thinks that steam engine is the way the modern transportation should look like because it is 'cool'... so be it.

Just be thankful you didn't post that on railroadforum.com - they'd tie your ass to the tracks - handlebar mustachioed villian style.

[Robert Burns]

All i can say is that my VHT is dead silent..and performs great.
So Steve must be doing something right? I remember a SUNN
amp saying on the back ..."hand wired by beautiful ladies in St Louis MO!"

[Cygnus X1]

I'll throw myself under the same train as DonP.
I could do PCB designs, but it would end up taking more time than turret or PTP.
Even if I didn't tweak as much as I do.

There is something to be said about the inductance/capacitance that exists in the very wiring schemes that make up a PTP build.
OTOH, If I came acrosss the perfect circuit, I would give a shot at PCB just for production purposes. No doubt the quality can be maintained!
I found the lower left side note funny, and true on that circuit board.
Us lower level home builders do with what we have.

Too many times the boo-tique builders get a little too much mojo goin' on for words. 50K for a build? Then goop it? WTF.

[Infernal Death]

You sound like you know what you are talking about.

DC heater current for a quad of EL34's (my DSL100 for example) would be a massive undertaking. Just too much current flowing in those heaters.

I never said PCB's were bad in audio or digital - I think they are a bad idea for mounting tubes. I don't care who's doing it. Marshall has had huge issues with PCB mounted tubes overheating in combos. Thermal runaway and tubes frying. I'll pass.

Yes, there is a lot of PTP hype to justify the cost.

IMO, I will use PTP because my circuits are experimental and I need to easily tweek stuff.

I've made amps with circuit boards back in the early 90s because I didn't know any better back then and thought that must be the way to make circuit boards. I used that amp today. But it doesn't have tubes mounted to the PCB.

Don, yes i agree. I meant only the preamp tubes. I don't know any amp (doesn't mean that there isn't one) that runs DC heaters on the power tubes. It's doable but complicated and probably not nearly rewarded for the expense.
And for us small time builders, ptp still is the best as you often have to trace problems and do some tweaking. And nothing better than ptp or turret boards / eyelet boards for this.

And sorry, the thing i said about pcb's being better wasn't directed at you directly but more on the general topic. Looking back it looks like my whole response was directed at you.

What i love on the construction for example of the Soldano SLO is that they IMO incorporated the advantages of both worlds. Components on a pcb, means it's consistent and not so much wiring and tube sockets chassis-mounted for more sturdiness.
I just think that since Bogner and VHT pcb-mounts their tubes there must be a way that this still yields high-quality and reliability.
I don't do it that way but then again i am just a hobby builder, building stuff for myself. And for this it doesn't matter if the amp takes 5 hours more to finish.

Flo

[marcus]

There is something to be said about the inductance/capacitance that exists in the very wiring schemes that make up a PTP build.

It is much easier to control parasitics in a PCB than in a PTP design. They are also going to be more consistent across multiple builds. Perhaps you were speaking of something else though?

[Cygnus X1]

It is much easier to control parasitics in a PCB than in a PTP design. They are also going to be more consistent across multiple builds. Perhaps you were speaking of something else though?

No, you are right.
I got flummoxed on one of my builds from a misplaced wire
causing it-zero signal was able to pass. I only found it by the old drumstick method.

Along with the potential problems comes some of the "mojo" that VHT is picking on. The bloom on the cleans, for example.