Amp gurus and band players - help me solve this riddle

[PowerTube]

This is something that has puzzled me for 20+ years, literally. Why is it that I can get my perfect sound at bedroom volumes, but it seems absolutely impossible to emulate that when playing loud?

Or to put it another way... how can I take the sound I love at bedroom volume and get it at club volume?

I don't play with a band so there's no band to "cut" through.

Here's the best way I can word this: let's say that I'm Michael Angelo Batio, Vinnie Moore, Joe Satriani (insert shredder of your choice here) and I'm doing a seminar with about 150-200 present. Not concert volume, but more like small club volume.

I know all of the standard answers; speakers blow more air, power section overdrives more, etc... but what I'm looking for is....does anyone know the real answer?

Do I need to lug a PA around? Seriously, should I invest in PA gear? Would leaving the amp rig at bedroom volume but greatly amplifying the sound with a PA be the answer?

Conventional wisdom says that the louder you turn the amp, the more it overdrives. This has NOT been my experience. My experience has been that the distortion stays the same but it greatly loses warmth. It starts to sound harsh and "clunky."

Or is EQ the answer? Should I pick a day when no one is around, crank it way up there, and pretend that I just bought the amp and I know nothing about it, then take it from the top as far as settings? That is, totally set up the amp for high volume playing?

The current amp in question is a Vetta II HD with two 4x12 cabs, but I've had this question with EVERY amp I've ever owned. Since the Vetta does 150 watts each side, plus each cab can handle 320 watts, headroom shouldn't be a factor in the least.

Cliffs:

1. I love my sound at bedroom volumes.

2. I can't get that same sound at high volumes.

Any help is appreciated.

EDIT: If this helps, my sound is the Line 6 Modern Hi-Gain tone, the "molten honey" 80's shredder sound, ala Vai, Satriani, Vinnie Moore, etc...

[jgcable]

Let me tackle this one....
Regarding the Vetta II, regardless of the Fletcher Munson feature built in or not.. the only way to tweak that amp is at the actual volume level you will be playing at. This means your bandmates will have to put up with you fiddling and dialing in fo a few hours during band rehearsal.
Take your favorite bedroom setting to a live setting. Now... turn it up to stage volume. You will now have to reduce the bass ( I suggest using the global bass control), and turn up the midrange a little. If you play with effects you will have to dial them down too. Turn off the compression and choose the T-75 equipt cab model.
Less is more with the Vetta live. Only turn up loud enough for you to hear yourself and run a line direct out from the Vetta to the PA system and have the soundguy give you a nice hot mix of your amp throuh a monitor that is either directly in front of you or a cross stage monitor. Another suggestion is to get yourself a powered monitor (called a hotspot) and run direct line out from your amp directly to the hotspot. This speaker will give you exact bedroom tone.

[PowerTube]

Let me tackle this one....
Regarding the Vetta II, regardless of the Fletcher Munson feature built in or not.. the only way to tweak that amp is at the actual volume level you will be playing at. This means your bandmates will have to put up with you fiddling and dialing in fo a few hours during band rehearsal.
Take your favorite bedroom setting to a live setting. Now... turn it up to stage volume. You will now have to reduce the bass ( I suggest using the global bass control), and turn up the midrange a little. If you play with effects you will have to dial them down too. Turn off the compression and choose the T-75 equipt cab model.
Less is more with the Vetta live. Only turn up loud enough for you to hear yourself and run a line direct out from the Vetta to the PA system and have the soundguy give you a nice hot mix of your amp throuh a monitor that is either directly in front of you or a cross stage monitor. Another suggestion is to get yourself a powered monitor (called a hotspot) and run direct line out from your amp directly to the hotspot. This speaker will give you exact bedroom tone.

Thanks! You know, I had been thinking that same thing about the bass; it's just too much at high volume. The effects become more pronounced, as well. I don't have any bandmates but I'll be performing solo pretty soon.

The last time around, the PA wasn't an option because the sound guy complained of a hiss when running direct. I thought that would be the Directional Trim, but we couldn't seem to get it right so I had to run straight cabs. These are both Vetta cabs, but again, they didn't translate so well at loud volumes.

So it looks like I'll be doing some high-volume tweaking this week.

Thanks again.

[hippietim]

Your problem is the Fletcher Munson curve.

As for amps getting more overdrive as they get louder - that doesn't really apply to the Vetta in terms of the overall volume but it should factor into their models of the amps. When people talk about this, they are referring to the distortion you get from power tubes being pushed hard as opposed to the buzzing bees tone you get from preamp tubes being pushed super hard. The Vetta has a solid state power amp and the last thing you want is for it to overdrive - that would suck. But I seriously doubt you are playing anywhere near the Vetta HD's clipping point - your ears would be bleeding before that.

As John said, you have to dial in your tones at about the level you're going to use them at. There is no substitute. It's no different for a tube rig either.

[jgcable]

Thanks! You know, I had been thinking that same thing about the bass; it's just too much at high volume. The effects become more pronounced, as well. I don't have any bandmates but I'll be performing solo pretty soon.

The last time around, the PA wasn't an option because the sound guy complained of a hiss when running direct. I thought that would be the Directional Trim, but we couldn't seem to get it right so I had to run straight cabs. These are both Vetta cabs, but again, they didn't translate so well at loud volumes.

So it looks like I'll be doing some high-volume tweaking this week.

Thanks again.

The bass will actually get woofy at high volume. It steps all over your tone. The hiss the soundguy heard probably was coming from either a compressor or a stomp box model. You need to turn them off when playing live. Try to approach a live patch on the Vetta II as if it was a real tube amp and a seperate pedal board. If you wouldn't use an effect with a conventional rig.. don't use it on the Vetta live.

[PowerTube]

Thanks, guys. I think you've given me enough to solve the problem. And you're right, Tim; this Vetta would be WAY too loud if I were anywhere near clipping the power section.

So I think I'll do this....turn it up to about the volume I'll be needing to play at, or at least within a close range, then take it from the very beginning; set the amp models (I always use the double amp feature), tweak each one, add a slight bit of reverb and delay, then set the cab models. I really won't have any need for Stomp Boxes 1, 2, or 3. I see no reason to have to use Compression, either.

You guys will probably laugh when I say this, but do you know what cab model(s) I use at normal playing volume? The 1x6. No kidding. It gives it that "Crazy Train" or "Boston" effect of playing through a small combo.

JG, I'll try your suggestion about the 4x12 with T-75's and see how it goes.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

also try the 25w greenback cab sim. i've had much better luck with that in a live situation. it smooths out the bass and the ice pick-ness in the high end.

[horns666]

You want preamp distortion with enough poweramp headroom to not compress or color your tone. Ex.. all my amps completly change from bedroon levels to band level. My Marshall rig is the only rig I've owned that doesn't do really this. There is enough headroom with the dual 100 watt tube power that is loud enough without even pushing it hard. So I never have to change my bedroon settings at loud volume levels My Uber is a different story, that amp changes big time. Nature of the beast really.

Do EXACTLY what has been suggested. Dial-in your amp while playing with the band or at least the drummer. Keep the settings there. I discovered the only thing I touch at bedroom levels is the presence control, which I turn up at bedroom levels, and back down at band level. The bass can muddy things up ALOT, especially with amps like the Uber. So I don't touch that. Your pushing that wrong kinda air with the subs. Sure you can feel it (bassist not required) , but hearing it is another story. Mids are very important here. Dial in the best tone you can at loud levels, and just leave it.

You really haven't tweak your amp until you have it up where it belongs..LOUD! Any cool settings you dial up quietly in the bedroom goes right out the window while jammin' with the band...or at least your drummer. If you have another guitarist..oh boy, then it's battle of the midrange. I had to live with a tone I didn't really care for when I was playing with Cleve-John (that also goes for him). One good reason why it's pretty cool to be the only guitarist. I think.

TWEAK IT LOUD!

[PowerTube]

I did some loud(er) tweaking tonight. You know what I wound up doing? Taking my favorite bedroom setting and changing the cab models. No joke. Well, I also calmed the delay down somewhat and cut some bass. It's very close to the warmth I usually get this way.

Keep in mind that I have no band that I need to be heard over; I'll be performing solo and I want to sound at least close to what I sound like at lower volumes.

One thing is for sure: this Vetta isn't lacking any headroom because the SOB is LOUD!

I will be thrilled beyond all description if I get a decent sound guy this time. If that hiss is still there even after tweaking everything I know to tweak, I might just say "screw it" and use it anyway. The hiss won't be heard while I'm playing. I just believe that I can get a much better EQ across a good PA than the Vetta will do straight up through 4x12 cabs.

By the way, Jgcable..... I tried the T-75 cab sim and I really don't care for it. No offense but everyone's ears are different. To my ears, my favorites are the 2x12 Zen Master, the 1x6 (no kidding) and the 4x12 with Greenback 20's.

[jgcable]

I did some loud(er) tweaking tonight. You know what I wound up doing? Taking my favorite bedroom setting and changing the cab models. No joke. Well, I also calmed the delay down somewhat and cut some bass. It's very close to the warmth I usually get this way.

Keep in mind that I have no band that I need to be heard over; I'll be performing solo and I want to sound at least close to what I sound like at lower volumes.

One thing is for sure: this Vetta isn't lacking any headroom because the SOB is LOUD!

I will be thrilled beyond all description if I get a decent sound guy this time. If that hiss is still there even after tweaking everything I know to tweak, I might just say "screw it" and use it anyway. The hiss won't be heard while I'm playing. I just believe that I can get a much better EQ across a good PA than the Vetta will do straight up through 4x12 cabs.

By the way, Jgcable..... I tried the T-75 cab sim and I really don't care for it. No offense but everyone's ears are different. To my ears, my favorites are the 2x12 Zen Master, the 1x6 (no kidding) and the 4x12 with Greenback 20's.

sounds like you are on your way!! I am surprised on the T-75 cab sim though. Most Vetta owners swear by that sim.

[PowerTube]

sounds like you are on your way!! I am surprised on the T-75 cab sim though. Most Vetta owners swear by that sim.

It's hard to explain, I suppose, because it's so subjective. To my ears, it didn't sound right for the same reason I don't like the Treadplate (Mesa Recto) cabs; it has that "nasally" midrange sound. Don't get me wrong, the T-75 sim sounded better than the Treadplate to me, but still not a favorite. Of course, there might be other amp settings where I would just love it. I'm sure a huge part of the picture is the amp(s) being ran across it.

If I get a decent PA guy this time (please please please), I'll need to EQ for the PA. I probably should have done what I did tonight in the first place; take my favorite setup and just tweak it.

In case anyone is curious, my favorite setup is:

Double Amped

Both are Modern Hi-Gain, Drive on about 3:30, Mids cut to about 9:30.

1x6 speaker sim (yes, I'm serious). It gets that "I'm Randy Rhoads playing Crazy Train across a dimed 5-watt Fender Champ" tone. Of course, I cut the mids so as to not get that "grind" effect.

A bit of Delay

A bit of Reverb

That's it. It's pretty straightforward. Cutting the bass did wonders for the "clunk" effect at higher volume. I'm also experimenting with a setup I discovered recently: the 05 Citrus (Orange) amp with a Metal Zone (on both channels, set the same) in front of it. Sustain and warmth for days but I'm still working some of the slight fuzz out of it.