All That Remains now endorsing Jackson & Charvel guitars

[VanHoosen]

No! Very chilled, hippie-ish and cool city. Not bleak at all, but then again I've lived most of my life in Northern Europe. This kind of metal doesn't make sense to me at all considering the local culture, vibe and many other things. Stockholm metal with is strong street punk roots makes total sense, hip Göteborg and this melodic metal thing doesn't make sense at all.

Ah, gotcha. That's why I felt so at home in Gothenburg - rain and hippies are a common staple in the Northwest USA.

The modern Gothenburg stuff sounds extremely trendy to my ears, so that could be the common thread here. I don't know, maybe they all just jumped on the success of At the Gates and took off from there. I mean, melodic metal to this day is super hip. There's plenty of these hipster guys on the west coast swearing their band is the next At the Gates or something. In that respect, I don't really get it either. But then again, I don't really associate with that stuff.

[xenophobe]

Agreed!

Haha, we agree on something! Actually it happens more often than not.

Well the thing about Possessed is that with "Seven Churches" they crossed so many boundaries. That album is easily one of my top 10 albums of all time and for me, it's Thrash Metal, Black Metal and Death Metal all rolled into one horrific nightmare of an album. I consider Possessed Death Metal because they coined the term. Either way, i won't disagree if you call them Black Metal too.

I just like to call them a band I like. And you're right, it's kind of hard to label them because they crossed lines that didn't yet exist. Seven Churches was sacred and it took the music scene almost a decade to catch up to that album.

I don't want to be pedantic or anything, i really don't care about genre classifications. All those bands were around in the early 90s and they may be old yes but it doesn't make the Death Metal they play 'old-school' in my opinion. For me, old-school Death Metal as a sound or style is quite distinctive - there's a different feeling; not much blasting, riffs are more Thrashy and there's a certain something that pushes it over the edge - you know, Massacre, early Sepultura, Protector and even later examples like Repugnant, Tribulation, Excoriate... That kinda thing.

Massacre and Sepultura I can agree with, but those bands are thrashy, like you stated. The Death Metal/Thrash line was very blurry back then. Most of the people who listened to early death metal were thrashers. Dark Angel, one of my most favorite bands from the late 80's falls into this blurryness, IMO. Look at Slayer's Hell Awaits as well. Compare that to later or earlier works and they're another band that spans multiple genres.

I don't really like doing the whole arguing over genre semantics. Many of the bands we love in Metal were doing their own thing before all these bored internet people decided they wanted to classify everything neatly. Back then, through all those early extreme metal years it wasn't like that.

[bratfink]

The common denominator we haven't discussed here is Earache Records.

Earache Records went out of their way to sign and promote good extreme metal bands from all 3 scenes. As a result many of these bands got to tour together and learn from each other in a way that might not have been possible otherwise. Think Gods of Grind tour and those other early Earache tours which included Morbid Angel, Entombed, Carcass, Bolt Thrower and Napalm Death on the same bill (all for the affordable price of 15GBP I might add). Plus exposing new audiences to metal from different countries and scenes.

Earache can probably be thanked for the entire growth of the US melodic scene (i.e. In Flames, Killswitch, ATR etc) since those guys would not have been influenced by those early bands had Earache not brought them over, nor would they have gone much further than local Stockholm had they not got Earache's support.

[xenophobe]

Telling a public (Re: Private) school educated Englishman that he has no reading comprehension is akin to telling a Grenadier Guard he can't march!

Well, if you can't factor regional dialect into one's account, then yes, you have a problem with comprehension. I can easily understand various cultural slang, nor do I grammar Nazi those people.

And I know how to march, I'm Mechanized Infantry....

Both Brutal and Technical Death came later.

There are passages on the album that are pure melodic, others would have fitted in Symphonies. It is a true crossover album. I can conceed that.

Just because songs have melody doesn't put it in a specific melodic genre. I agree that Heartwork is melodic, but compare it to the bulk of melodic death metal albums and it doesn't cleanly fit in. Carcass was never really a bandwagon band, they cut new ground.

Before the Internet there was the tape exchange. Labels have existed as long as humanity has been on the planet. in the 60's it was Mods vs Rockers, the Who were mod, the Troggs were rockers. In the 50's Teddy Boys vs everyone. It is a human condition to compartmentalise everything and everyone, makes you feel like you belong to something.

Yeah, I understand that but back then it wasn't about genre splitting. And yes, I remember tape exchanges. There was also this fan-based metal mag that focused on mainly brutal and black metal, I forget what the name of it was. It came out every 2 months... I forget where it was from though. It was really underground. It had ads for bands selling demo tapes, they would review demos and albums from artists you'd never normally come across. All the bands that Kerrang would never mention would be found in this matte-printed mag that was only released to newstands 6 times a year. Damn, wish I could remember what mag that was....

No, Death were the genre defining band. They and their other kin the Florida area were the nucleus that created the scene and the genre to follow. Much as Carcass, Napalm & Bolt Thrower did for Grindcore and Entombed and co did for Melodic. In order to have a genre you must first have a scene of like minded individuals. Without that you just have an excentric lunatic doing his own thing that no-one cares about.

No, I remember having a discussion about Death in the mid-80's. We had a really hard time classifying it. Their demos were clearly thrash. Their earlier albums could easily have fit on the shelf with Kreator or Destruction. Later they got more refined and more melodic. Chuck's later albums became more progressive. End with Control Denied. Not death metal at all. Fits in the CD rack nicely with Cynic or Forbidden's album Distortion.

These early entrepreneurs are the only ones capable of changing the shape of the genre they create, anyone coming to the party late who wants to change the sound in effect creates a new sub genre. Hence, Brutal Death, Tech Death etc. However, the genre out grows the father. If they try to change it too much and go against the will of the collective they will ostracise themselves, Carcass with the Rot n Roll experiment and Entombed with the Death n Roll experiement come to mind.

And I disagree. You're trying to sub-classify bands that were around before there were even specific genres for them. Even the extreme metal mags during the day had so many various different bands on spotlight because there was no well defined genre for many examples of extreme metal.

The 80's and 90's were a great change and new bands were popping up all the time that defied genres. And back then, it wasn't listeners who were classifying bands... it was the bands themselves trying to differentiate themselves from other bands and often making up their own classification where they would like to fit.

We should talk of those, but not as being inside the genre. Megadeth were hugely influenced by King Diamond, but you would never call King Diamond Thrash. Vemon had many streaks that made them effectively a very early form of Death Metal. So early infact that both Black and Death could trace liniage back to them.

Yes, but that's before there were really any bands that could be classified into any specific genre like you're trying to do.

Either way if you are talking about late 80's and early 90's as being old school, you already missed the bus. By 1990 the second gen of bands was already becoming popular, the genres had changed and the sub genres were starting to appear. I stand by my original message, the 3 localised early extreme metal genres were Death (US), Grindcore (UK) and Melodic (Scandinavia). Everything else is a mixture in varying degrees of those 3.

I was too busy going to shows supporting all my extreme metal bands and spending little time trying to classify them when there weren't a whole bunch of genre. I bought Kill 'em All and Show No Mercy when those bands only had those albums. Venom is before my time, though I did have several of their albums at that time. Merciful Fate too. There weren't enough bands out there back then to justify all the sub-genre classifications you'd like to give them after the fact. It's not like the mid-90's or beyond when it became more important to try to classify all the bands differently.

I still think like I did back then. I like bands. I don't care what label or genre you wish to put them in. It doesn't alter my listening experience one bit.

[xenophobe]

The common denominator we haven't discussed here is Earache Records.

Earache Records went out of their way to sign and promote good extreme metal bands from all 3 scenes. As a result many of these bands got to tour together and learn from each other in a way that might not have been possible otherwise. Think Gods of Grind tour and those other early Earache tours which included Morbid Angel, Entombed, Carcass, Bolt Thrower and Napalm Death on the same bill (all for the affordable price of 15GBP I might add). Plus exposing new audiences to metal from different countries and scenes.

Earache can probably be thanked for the entire growth of the US melodic scene (i.e. In Flames, Killswitch, ATR etc) since those guys would not have been influenced by those early bands had Earache not brought them over, nor would they have gone much further than local Stockholm had they not got Earache's support.

I agree with all that. I had a friend who worked for Earache AU. They did kind of change everything.

[bratfink]

Well, if you can't factor regional dialect into one's account, then yes, you have a problem with comprehension. I can easily understand various cultural slang, nor do I grammar Nazi those people.

And I know how to march, I'm Mechanized Infantry....

Now who's the one missing reading comprehension 101? I gave you a similie, I didn't say anything about you marching.

And if you are Mech Inf then you really can't march! Going to war on the number 9 bus is something perculiar to the US military. The rest of us walk/yomp/tab like men (Ex British Army Officer here )

Just because songs have melody doesn't put it in a specific melodic genre. I agree that Heartwork is melodic, but compare it to the bulk of melodic death metal albums and it doesn't cleanly fit in. Carcass was never really a bandwagon band, they cut new ground.

Yeah, I understand that but back then it wasn't about genre splitting. And yes, I remember tape exchanges. There was also this fan-based metal mag that focused on mainly brutal and black metal, I forget what the name of it was. It came out every 2 months... I forget where it was from though. It was really underground. It had ads for bands selling demo tapes, they would review demos and albums from artists you'd never normally come across. All the bands that Kerrang would never mention would be found in this matte-printed mag that was only released to newstands 6 times a year. Damn, wish I could remember what mag that was....

No, I remember having a discussion about Death in the mid-80's. We had a really hard time classifying it. Their demos were clearly thrash. Their earlier albums could easily have fit on the shelf with Kreator or Destruction. Later they got more refined and more melodic. Chuck's later albums became more progressive.

And I disagree. You're trying to sub-classify bands that were around before there were even specific genres for them. Even the extreme metal mags during the day had so many various different bands on spotlight because there was no well defined genre for many examples of extreme metal.

The 80's and 90's were a great change and new bands were popping up all the time that defied genres.

Yes, but that's before there were really any bands that could be classified into any specific genre like you're trying to do.

I was too busy going to shows supporting all my extreme metal bands and spending little time trying to classify them when there weren't a whole bunch of genre. I bought Kill 'em All and Show No Mercy when those bands only had those albums. Venom is before my time, though I did have several of their albums at that time. Merciful Fate too. There weren't enough bands out there back then to justify all the sub-genre classifications you'd like to give them after the fact. It's not like the mid-90's or beyond when it became more important to try to classify all the bands differently.

I still think like I did back then. I like bands. I don't care what label or genre you wish to put them in. It doesn't alter my listening experience one bit.

I see your points and can relate in some way. I wasn't trying to pigeon hole everything by genre so much as describe the musics differences geologically. The point I was really trying to make is that none of the bands I have heard since the mid 80's could be considered Old School. However, Devote made a good point that Old School Death is more of a sound than a period. I could agree with that more than anything.

We had a local record store in Bristol called Revolver Records that basically ran a tape exchange, we'd spend hours in there on a Saturday just listening to all the stuff they had. Occasionally a couple of those bands would come through and play at the Bierkeller and we'd get to see them. Bristol wasn't as big as Nottingham or Birmingham for the extreme metal, but we had a decent enough small scene.

[xenophobe]

Now who's the one missing reading comprehension 101? I gave you a similie, I didn't say anything about you marching.

And if you are Mech Inf then you really can't march! Going to war on the number 9 bus is something perculiar to the US military. The rest of us walk/yomp/tab like men (Ex British Army Officer here )

I was being silly, hence the And good job. *salutes* /much respect

I see your points and can relate in some way. I wasn't trying to pigeon hole everything by genre so much as describe the musics differences geologically. The point I was really trying to make is that none of the bands I have heard since the mid 80's could be considered Old School. However, Devote made a good point that Old School Death is more of a sound than a period. I could agree with that more than anything.

I would agree that it's more sound than a time period as well. I consider the bands that I said were 'old-school death metal' more because of the time period and how they influenced the scene. But at the same time I'm not being totally restrictive. I consider Cryptospy old-school because of how they influenced the scene and putting it in another sub-genre isn't something I want to do because that gets messier the more specific you try to get.

In other words, you're getting too picky when you have to classify every album from a single band into a different sub-genre.

We had a local record store in Bristol called Revolver Records that basically ran a tape exchange, we'd spend hours in there on a Saturday just listening to all the stuff they had. Occasionally a couple of those bands would come through and play at the Bierkeller and we'd get to see them. Bristol wasn't as big as Nottingham or Birmingham for the extreme metal, but we had a decent enough small scene.

That's cool. We never had a local tape exchange. It was always through the mail here. "I'll send you a copy of XXX's bands demo for YYY's demo, etc..."

[bratfink]

Talking about Old School being a sound rather than a period, check these guys out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m0AhnOwubnA

I'd call this Old School Grindcore. At least it reminds me of old Bolt Thrower. But Old Autopsy and Massacre also could sound a little like this.

Either way I love it!

[VanHoosen]

Man, yeah nothing turns me off more than genre hair splitting. It makes things all too divisive, especially when you have kids who are exclusively into one "sub genre" of metal. "I only listen to power metal," or "I only listen to tech death," or "I only listen to evil black metal." Whatever, blah-blah-blah. As long as it's true headbanging metal and not some poser crap by pseudo-intellectual metrosexual fashionista dudes *ahem, topic in question*, then I'm probably into it or at least respect it.

It matters more to me to understand where the bands came from and how they evolved - not what cookie cutter sound they fall into.

[xenophobe]

To me, this is classic old-school death metal. It's not really all that different than many other genres of music when it came out.

[VanHoosen]

Talking about Old School being a sound rather than a period, check these guys out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m0AhnOwubnA

I'd call this Old School Grindcore. At least it reminds me of old Bolt Thrower. But Old Autopsy and Massacre also could sound a little like this.

Either way I love it!

Yeah those dudes are rad. Cool guys too. Grave Miasma are also great.

[xenophobe]

BTW, Carcass was called Grindcore at one time. So was Cepahlic Carnage. I don't consider them even remotely similar.

[bratfink]

I was jamming with these guys for a bit, long story. I can't take any credit for the music that was all written long before I knew them, but still good old school US death metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWurbM-TIT4

And of late we have got to know these guys a little. They play a lot faster than I am used to being from the old UK Death scene but these guys are really talented and always tight live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU31yR6pvSk&feature=related

Bolt Thrower were also called Grindcore, but really sounded more melodic to me. That's why I had the theory about genres being more geological.

[Devotee]

Haha, we agree on something! Actually it happens more often than not.

I just like to call them a band I like. And you're right, it's kind of hard to label them because they crossed lines that didn't yet exist. Seven Churches was sacred and it took the music scene almost a decade to catch up to that album.

"Seven Churches" is one of those albums that no one can touch, everything about it is so unique.

Massacre and Sepultura I can agree with, but those bands are thrashy, like you stated. The Death Metal/Thrash line was very blurry back then. Most of the people who listened to early death metal were thrashers. Dark Angel, one of my most favorite bands from the late 80's falls into this blurryness, IMO. Look at Slayer's Hell Awaits as well. Compare that to later or earlier works and they're another band that spans multiple genres.

I don't really like doing the whole arguing over genre semantics. Many of the bands we love in Metal were doing their own thing before all these bored internet people decided they wanted to classify everything neatly. Back then, through all those early extreme metal years it wasn't like that.

[Devotee]

Yeah those dudes are rad. Cool guys too. Grave Miasma are also great.

Indeed, both Cruci and GM are awesome bands; both bands are good buddies of mine and they're awesome dudes.