For the past 15 years, I've been a huge non fan of Metallica...

[Devotee]

There's two reasons why Metallica is the biggest Metal band in history - they've always done what they wanted, and they evolved. Metallica was my gateway into Metal and music in general so i suppose i'm a little biased but i'm not the 12 year old kid wearing out his Master of Puppets tape anymore. Even though like most i'm a bigger fan of their older stuff up to and including AJFA; The Black Album, Load and Reload are great albums with some really killer songs. Even St. Anger had some great moments: it was extreme in so many ways; heavy as fuck, it stands as Hetfield's shining moment in his singing career and that notorious snare drum that supposed 'metalheads' love to whinge about is the most brutal, extreme and crushingly heavy sounding snare on ANY album ever released. There's fucking BLASTBEATS in some parts for fuck's sake.

Either way, it's a pretty ludicrous prospect to want Metallica in 201x to sound like it's 1986 again just as it is to keep wanting Slayer to release Reign In Blood Pt. 2, but Death Magnetic was a killer album that managed to distill everything Metallica has been doing the past 30+ years into ~50 minutes. Haters gonna hate but regardless, Metallica never gave a shit about the armchair quarterbacks and look where it got them: at the top.

[Larz]

Over 30 years you'll grow in and out of love with a lot of things, just as they probably did with their sound and writing styles. We're not all 18, hungry and angry anymore. I'm happy to see their success as one of just like 3 kids who liked Metallica in my highschool in the mid-80s.

I don't love everything they've done of late but so what, I choose the songs I listen too, there's always their old stuff that never gets old, not much else has grabbed my attention lately either from other bands.

Undeniable their longevity and fan base is still extraordinary by looking at their all corners of the world tour schedule and the amount of shows they play.

Sell out? Who knows, its a strange term, they became accessible to the masses, but a lot of people found them as well and became fans of their earlier stuff afterwards. Anyone remember on the balck album tour? The played enter sandman first as I recall and James said something like....that was for everyone who came only to hear that song so they could leave and get the fuck out.

Would they still be making music long after AJFA if they didn't do the black album? Who knows. Or would Lars be working as a women's tennis pro at some country club by now? (Reminds me of Chris Degarmo becoming a pilot). And critiques of Kirk and Lars aside as players and humans, the band can still bring it live based on the death magnetic show I went to a couple years back and multi-generations of fans were there headbanging right along.

When they hang it up there will be a huge metal/rock void to fill and I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate and doing anything more than laying down a bunt that rolls foul in comparison.

Will Avenged Sevenfold or any other band still have the same sound, energy, philosophy 10-15-20 years from now? Doubt it, if they are even lucky enough to have survived and made a living on music that long.

No doubt we've heard their best by now, and who knows whats left in the tank, but it was mind blowing stuff and set a trend in an era that was far trendier with U2, Debbie Gibson and Bon Jovi.

[DonP]

There's two reasons why Metallica is the biggest Metal band in history

LOL! Lets not get carried away.

at the top.

At the top. Top of pop music and I could care less. If money is all they wanted and kudos to them for selling out.

[CowboyFromHell]

What was is they said... "sell out? hell yes we sell out... every night"

[vampire dark]

hey people threre's no need for you to rage about metallica as if they said to you "we're going to stay true to heaviness" and they didn't keep their promise.....I believe lars has a lot of ego and might be the selfiest guy in the band , but I think james and kirk are very calm people and I find unfair that some here blame them so much.To me kirk has always been doing his thing: in the beginning he had a better output in his solos(younger people have more passion and smarter brains) , now he ruins the songs with too much wha wha.James has a characteristic voice (now he finds it difficult to sing his older songs) a very awesome voice that suits metallica....concerning the writting of songs I think that the reason why he changed it a lot is that he changed as a person..... he is not the same guy, angry about the injustice in this world .....The way I see it is that they didn't go that much for the money(although I know not the truth) ,but their success gave them some comforts and really their life was and is going to a better point...they do what they love, playing music for people, which is a dream come true for many of us and they give great shows as entertainers.So there aren't that many reasons to be angry in order to writte heavy music....but on the other hand it doesn't mean that you can't write heavy music.I would prefer that they did some side projects individualy or even inform us that you know, "were gonna slow it down in this album cause this is how we feel" and after this let their sleeping beast wake and make heavy shit again......it is that we change as people and I can feel it though I'm very very young.I wouldn't like metallica if they kept doing the same thing in their albums, but they did a very extreme change in the music genre and thats the reason why they let us down........because we are passionate by their first works and then boom!!!-you get the difference.What dissapoints us is that the change happened at big levels and for a long period of time.maybe they reached a point of being a big name and then they gave up trying being better and when you stop trying being better you stop being good.keep in mind that the motivational force of satissfying a need is the reverse of the degree of satissfaction.the one way or the other we have yet to listen some really good music by them....

[leftykingv2]

hey people threre's no need for you to rage about metallica as if they said to you "we're going to stay true to heaviness" and they didn't keep their promise.....I believe lars has a lot of ego and might be the selfiest guy in the band , but I think james and kirk are very calm people and I find unfair that some here blame them so much.To me kirk has always been doing his thing: in the beginning he had a better output in his solos(younger people have more passion and smarter brains) , now he ruins the songs with too much wha wha.James has a characteristic voice (now he finds it difficult to sing his older songs) a very awesome voice that suits metallica....concerning the writting of songs I think that the reason why he changed it a lot is that he changed as a person..... he is not the same guy, angry about the injustice in this world .....The way I see it is that they didn't go that much for the money(although I know not the truth) ,but their success gave them some comforts and really their life was and is going to a better point...they do what they love, playing music for people, which is a dream come true for many of us and they give great shows as entertainers.So there aren't that many reasons to be angry in order to writte heavy music....but on the other hand it doesn't mean that you can't write heavy music.I would prefer that they did some side projects individualy or even inform us that you know, "were gonna slow it down in this album cause this is how we feel" and after this let their sleeping beast wake and make heavy shit again......it is that we change as people and I can feel it though I'm very very young.I wouldn't like metallica if they kept doing the same thing in their albums, but they did a very extreme change in the music genre and thats the reason why they let us down........because we are passionate by their first works and then boom!!!-you get the difference.What dissapoints us is that the change happened at big levels and for a long period of time.maybe they reached a point of being a big name and then they gave up trying being better and when you stop trying being better you stop being good.keep in mind that the motivational force of satissfying a need is the reverse of the degree of satissfaction.the one way or the other we have yet to listen some really good music by them....

I'll be buying their next album like I bought all the ones before it but if you're waiting for some really great music to come from them now....I hope you packed a lunch. Their best days musically and creatively are well behind them. The proof is in the pudding my friend. Their last five albums have been terrible and I don't care what anyone says.

[Rsmacker]

Ah come on now, what about Lulu?

[leftykingv2]

Ah come on now, what about Lulu?

[FloydRose4Prez]

If I hear 'em on sat radio, I'll listen because it's usually old stuff. In high school, my buddies were bigger fans than I was ( I preferred "hair" metal ). I felt that Kirk's solo tone was sub-par; very boring and plain. Not a big fan after 1991. Saw the movie, though. Sounded great.

[leftykingv2]

If I hear 'em on sat radio, I'll listen because it's usually old stuff. In high school, my buddies were bigger fans than I was ( I preferred "hair" metal ). I felt that Kirk's solo tone was sub-par; very boring and plain. Not a big fan after 1991. Saw the movie, though. Sounded great.

"What choo talkin bout Willis?"

[Codex]

The only people who make me roll my eyes more than the 'I only like Metallica pre-black album' crowd are those who go on a long boring explanation of the meaning of their tattoo(s).

[CowboyFromHell]

You know, I kid sometimes, like with the Lady Gaga comments I made, but honestly everyone here likes what they like. It would be boring as hell if we liked ALL the same things. Honestly I find my music taste runs a great bit different than most people in this forum. I generally keep my tastes to myself just because of most of what you see in this thread. Often times there's a tight group of long-timers here and if your likes are different than theirs you get criticized and/or insulted. It may not be aimed directly at a person but the point gets made. Not all the old-timers are like that, don't get me wrong, but those who are know who they are whether they admit or deny it. Now, those of you who know this is aimed at you, if you get mad so be it. I may not like the same tunes as everyone here, but to me that's cool because sometimes I learn of a new band I hadn't previously or maybe an older band that didn't make mainstream or was perhaps a great local band that someone shares. For that I say thanks, but to those who "hate" on people for liking something other than what they do, open your mind a bit. Nobody here is perfect but I'd like to think that a forum like this is a great place for us not only to share what we have in common, but also the things that make us different. The longer we're here the better we get to know each other. We know the one main thing that brought us all together, Jackson and Charvel guitars. Shouldn't the friendships and comradere we develop here be a main reason we stay instead of leaving and going to another forum because of how some people are treated? I know this is probably going to stir a bunch of shit and piss some people off, but I hope maybe it makes at least one person think before they type the next time someone likes something different or asks a question that may be stupid to some people here.


Just so you know, I'm not above following my own words and trying to be a better example.

Jerry.

[leftykingv2]

You know, I kid sometimes, like with the Lady Gaga comments I made, but honestly everyone here likes what they like. It would be boring as hell if we liked ALL the same things. Honestly I find my music taste runs a great bit different than most people in this forum. I generally keep my tastes to myself just because of most of what you see in this thread. Often times there's a tight group of long-timers here and if your likes are different than theirs you get criticized and/or insulted. It may not be aimed directly at a person but the point gets made. Not all the old-timers are like that, don't get me wrong, but those who are know who they are whether they admit or deny it. Now, those of you who know this is aimed at you, if you get mad so be it. I may not like the same tunes as everyone here, but to me that's cool because sometimes I learn of a new band I hadn't previously or maybe an older band that didn't make mainstream or was perhaps a great local band that someone shares. For that I say thanks, but to those who "hate" on people for liking something other than what they do, open your mind a bit. Nobody here is perfect but I'd like to think that a forum like this is a great place for us not only to share what we have in common, but also the things that make us different. The longer we're here the better we get to know each other. We know the one main thing that brought us all together, Jackson and Charvel guitars. Shouldn't the friendships and comradere we develop here be a main reason we stay instead of leaving and going to another forum because of how some people are treated? I know this is probably going to stir a bunch of shit and piss some people off, but I hope maybe it makes at least one person think before they type the next time someone likes something different or asks a question that may be stupid to some people here.


Just so you know, I'm not above following my own words and trying to be a better example.

Jerry.

I agree, and while I know I have been guilty of some of the things you've made mention of, I only hope people know I am just voicing my "Personal Opinion" and other times just breaking balls. I certainly don't want anyone to feel bad or like I am ostracizing them for their opinions or tastes. What you just said there is very poignant Cowboy. I consider a lot of guys on here my "bros" and I hope they feel the same. After all, the thing that unites us all is our love of guitars and great music like you said.

[Newc]

Metal only really went that way BECAUSE Metallica "sold out" and were so popular. If they hadn't made that move into becoming Megastars they would have just produced another so-so LP which would have been almost un-noticed by the mainstream, and would have just become another band playing to more and more "selective audiences" until they disappeared, along with all the rest of the HM bands, good and bad who were all fighting for a share of the market (all our favourites from the 80's in other words).
They could have had Fleming Rasmussen help them make another Master of Puppets, but you, the record buying public wouldn't have been happy - there'd be nothing new to grab any new fans, and the old fans would still say, "Yeah, but Puppets was better". The result would have been a stagnating band, playing to a dwindling audience of people getting older, having families, moving on, while they became that band you used to love before they became a yawn, the upstarts doing things their way who became run-of-the-mill and conformist.

The most important thing to remember is they wouldn't have been able to sustain the band as a business with another Puppets or AJFA, revenue would only have gone downwards, and we all know how record companies like that sort of thing. One sniff of that and they would be cut loose.

How many bands with declining sales ever get the critics' attention again? Most wouldn't even get a listen once they appear to falter and have peaked. There are plenty of fucking fantastic LPs, incredibly good music, from bands after a mediocre LP halted their climb to the top, meaning the blinder was critically ignored. It's a fickle business, once you have had a bite at the cherry, you don't often get a second chance, you become invisible to the people that matter - the people who keep the machinery running and the money rolling.

With the running costs of a band in their position after AJFA, it's probably harder to survive than when deciding whether to jack in the full-time job and go pro. There's a downward spiral that is inevitable if sales don't keep improving, (particularly true back when the Black album arrived and HM was a large, but still very niche market, nothing like the self-sustaining genre that it it now.)
If members start deciding they are "stars" and want to up their lifestyle (and that's human nature, to want shinier, newer, better toys than last year), they need to be increasing their income accordingly. Difficult when for every new fan you win, another decides they are too old for that shit any more and buys a Dire Straits LP instead. Any band on the up only remains "relevant" for a period of months before they are eclipsed by the "next big thing".

Let's say they did compose stuff superior to those early LPs, we probably wouldn't have got to hear it!

Bob Rock had a monumental task, it was actually the critical point of their career, forward into mega-sales or round in a circle and disappear up their own bumhole. Their momentum had propelled them straight through the Cliff Burton tragedy, which would have finished most bands (including them, if they'd not had that huge following carrying them forward), it was this LP which would make or break them. He had to beat practical sense into Metallica, took them from being a very good band with a hardcore following and some healthy album sales into being an unstoppable colossus. Their business spreadsheet nowadays would make their AJFA accounts look like loose change.
And, as much as people will decry the Black LP now, I'll bet nearly every single one of you bought the fucking thing back in 1991, loved it when "Enter Sandman" came on the radio, and nearly drove the neighbours insane trying to get that "Sad But True" heaviness from your own music, or just blasting the CD out over and over. Feel free to deny it, but you know the truth! How many times Platinum has it sold? (16 according to wikipedia). It's one of those LPs you KNOW you will find on any/every rock fan's shelf, whether he was a thrasher or Jethro Tull fan (hur hur). You'll find it in the collections of people who you wouldn't think would go anywhere near the heavy end of rock. I reckon people have it on their shelf but have absolutely no idea where or when they bought it, it was just an essential album for the rock fan in the 90s.

Metallica went from being a metal household name, to being a household name like U2 or Queen or Pink Floyd. That is not easily done and sustained...look at the other heavy rock band who were seemingly unstoppable back around then - G'nR with their grand piano and turning up 2 hours late for shows. Are they even comparable?

Personally, I think Metallica did well to survive and prosper in an uncompromising position - they were never going to keep everyone happy all the time. They matured, as did their music, in a difficult profession where one wrong step could mean slithering down the snake back to Club-land.

I'd love them to still be the edgy rebel kids they were back when they were cancelling UK tours due to poor ticket sales (yes, I DID have a ticket and only found out the gig was off when I got to fucking Birmingham Odeon), back when they were OUR band, our secret, just like us, drinking beer and swearing, ripped jeans, leather jackets, mullets and zits. By the same token, I wish I was still like that, and not the fat 44 yr old with no hair and dilemmas about putting money into my pension fund.
I try to forgive them the atrocities like St Anger and that Lulu abortion, but after years of brown-nosers telling you your shit doesn't stink, I'm sure it's easy to lose touch with real life, and think that singing about being a table is a good idea.

I know one thing, that without Metallica's leap into the BIG-time, Slayer wouldn't be still trundling around playing the same old shite (yeah, they peaked at Reign in Blood), Mustaine would have disappeared into obscurity (he's close now) and Diamond Darrell would be knocking out Kiss covers in bars with Pantera Mk42. Metallica gave the whole metal genre room and exposure to blossom and take on all the different forms it does today, rather than being a noisy row that only antisocial Grebos listen to. At the end of the day, as much as you think that metal took on a "nastier" turn in the 90s, it was BECAUSE of Metallica, not as a reaction against them. Without them, no sane businessman would have gambled on the sustainability of any metal band, let alone the healthy record sales of more and more extreme material and a self-sustaining live scene (look at the festivals full of metal bands every year in Europe now, there are almost too many to choose from, without having to have Def fucking Leppard on the bill just to attract enough paying customers to make it worth it)

I'd still like to punch that fat-faced fucker Lars in his smug mush though, if I got half a chance.

TL;DR? Fuck off, pleb.

Um, where did the last 45 minutes go to...?

And with this post, I stopped reading this thread, for it is the absolute truth of the matter.

The earlier comment about "playing smaller venues where the 'true fans' could be close enough to scratch their balls" is the typical mindset I expect from a "Metallica fan" who cries about their success. It goes hand-on-balls with the whole "sellout" tag "becuz now we has to pay for their albums rather than pass copies around for freebies which is what made them popular and Metallica shuld be true to their fanz and play for free lulz".

Yes, Black had a couple of pussy songs for the radio pussies, but it also had Sad But True, which is crush kill and destroy all the way through.

AJFA had ONE video (for One), and MTV butchered it by removing over half the solo to suit their 3-minute format. Yet people make it sound like Metallica were competing with Michael Jackoff for the most videos from one artist.

Yes, I have Black. Yes, I like it, though thanks to the radio play, Nothing Else Matters got on my nerves. Through The Never, Of WOlf And Man, Sad But True, and Don't Tread On Me were as good as anything from RTL, MOP, or AJFA. They were as satisfying to learn and play along with as Cthulu, Puppets, or Blackened. It also served as the gateway to get the Grunge Babies further into Metallica and show them what real Thrash was - move them backwards down the list and they moshed to Kill Em All as fervently as the "true fans", because they became "true fans".

[Sharkfin]

Kill 'Em All will always be a kick ass album, no matter what new material they put out. It's solid, especially Cliff's bass solo Anesthesia Pulling Teeth I think the final nail in the coffin will be when they do either an all acoustic album or show (unplugged). It will happen, I know it.

I saw this a few years a go and I got a good chuckle