Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

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Siggy "14" (are you 14?...uh never mind) Bill here has proven himself with only a few examples, to be "Technically" better with his playing than anything Wes has recorded so far so that’s fact. (And many of us can claim and prove the same)

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Who the **** cares who is "Technically" better? There is a much longer line of not so great "Technical" guitar players that have created some brilliant music. Who fuckin' cares? Really.

Having said all that, my favorite musician of all time is Steve Vai and I think Limp Bisquick sucks ass. And, I don't know anything else about Wes Borland so for now and until proven otherwise he sucks ass too.

[horns666]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

Steve Vai rules..

Tim.. I think what Dave meant was...That a person has a right to say someone sucks if he posseses a higher skill level..

I heard Zakk Wylde say Wes Borland sucks...we'll since Zakk is a major shredder...I'll take his word for it...If Wes said that about Zakk then it is without merit....unless he can show me otherwise....not gonna happen.

It would be silly for me to say that Mike Tyson is a pussy and can't fight knowing full well he can probably beat my ass..

On some other thread Deneb stated ..."alexi laiho sucks"...now I'm not a betting man ...but I would have to assume that statement is without merit due to the fact that we all know that alexi is a very established gifted player..and I don't think Deneb had the oomph or the proof to back that up..

as far as I'm concerned I can say that Wes Borland sucks with a clear conscience. But I couldn't say that about players such as ....hell let's name some players in a style of music I hate...hmmmmmmm..Roy Clark...you see I can't say that Roy Clark sucks because he can probably kick my ass on guitar...same goes for Alvin Lee...or Mike Bloomfield...Stanly Jordan...I don't like their music but they are very gifted players..

Wes Borland is not a gifted player...he is a image...a packaged image..and nothing more.

[ChickenScratch]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

Look, Zakk can rip on anyone he wants because he can back it up. I'm sure he wouldnt rip on someone who's on his skill level or above though because he would understand and respect that person's skill level and effort to get there.

On the other hand if Wes were to rip on Zakk it would show him as morally and judmentally bankrupt because not only is he talking badly about someone in his own feild (I use the term loosly Bill) but it would show that he refuses to see the skill and effort of Zakk's work.

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

I hear ya Bill. I think it's fair to say anyone sucks for whatever reason.

However, as a musician (admittedly, I use the term loosely), I try not to evaluate another musician purely based on technical merits. Music isn't a competition in that sense. I think Wes Borland sucks too - but not because he can't shred - I just have never heard anything come out of his amp that didn't sound like ass.

A good example of what I mean is Keith Richards. Clearly a lot of guys can run circles around him technically but when it comes time to deliver the goods and make some actual music, Keith will be there while a bunch wankers are meedleying away making noise.

Michaelangelobatio can school just about everyone technically (maybe even my beloved hero Steve Vai) but to be honest I'd rather listen to Limp Bisquick or Nickelcrap (and believe me I don't want to listen to them). Although Nitro was comical to see live back in the day - it was like a genetic experiment. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And as long as we're speaking our minds, a lot of folks know I go out of my way to say Santana and Def Leppard suck whenever I can. So here we go again. Santana sucks. Def Leppard sucks (and Pyromania is the WORST produced album of all time). Oh what the hell, other than when he was in Cream, Clapton sucks too.

[img]/images/graemlins/fart.gif[/img]

MWHAHAHAHAHAHA....

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So back to Wes Borland and Jackson for a minute - is he actually an endorsee now?

[sevser]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!


Who the **** cares who is "Technically" better? There is a much longer line of not so great "Technical" guitar players that have created some brilliant music. Who fuckin' cares? Really.

Having said all that, my favorite musician of all time is Steve Vai and I think Limp Bisquick sucks ass. And, I don't know anything else about Wes Borland so for now and until proven otherwise he sucks ass too.

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Hippietim; I have to ask...Whats the problem? Why do people get so up tight and PC when someone talks skill? It's the only thing that is factual so I said Bill (I feel) is qualified to say Wes sucks as he is talking about skill.

Bill has already said it best in his last post so I'll leave it at that. I just don't understand why you got your sh!t in a knot. And people musent forget, just because you have shred ability doesn't mean you sacrificed taste, it just means you have more to play with. More ways to express yourself.

Maybe I need to post a solo or two to back myself up...Do I come off as some sh!t talker? [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[noodlesatf]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

Hippie Tim: Def Leppard may suck in your eyes, but Steve Clark was undeniablely a gifted riff writer, and Phil Collen can absolutely tear up the fretboard. When Pyromania came out, they kicked New Wave right in the teeth. For that, everyone owes them the same debt of gratitude that they owe Bruce Springsteen (who I can't stand) for destroying disco. Oh, and didn't Kiss have a disco album? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

How can you say Clapton sucked after Cream? What about Derek and the Dominoes? Can you revise your statement to say that he sucked after that? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[BigDaddyD]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

I don't understand how anyone can possibly know how "good" a player is based on their recorded works. All you can judge is what he recorded. I know plenty of players that can shred and can school many others, but play in bands were their skills might not be utilized. They just play for the song, not to get their rocks off. One of my friends comes to mind. He can play anything. You name it, he can play it. His last band though was basically a pop band built around a female singer. It was not a guitar band. I you heard their album you might like it but most of you would probably say he sucks based on the disk because he isn't shredding....which he can. My point is you have no idea how well Wes Borland can play. I have no idea how he can play. I don't care....but everyone is entitled to their own opinion regardless of how good they are or how many albums they sold. Zakk can say whatever he wants about anyone, not because he is bigger than them or because he can outplay them...he can say it because he is entitled to his opinion.

[noodlesatf]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

Good point, BigDaddyD, I sometimes forget to think of it that way. I saw Korn on Halloween about four or five years back. They came out dressed in 80's hair metal costumes, and kicked off the show with "Rock You Like a Hurricane". The solos were played note for note. They continued with "Come On Feel the Noise", and once again, one of the guys nailed the solo note for note. The real shocker was in the middle of the set, when Munkey played the famous Steve Vai part at the end of "Crossroads". He couldn't quite crank it up to the same insanse speed as Vai, but he nailed it dead on at probably 80% speed. Until that night, I always just assumed the guitarists in Korn were a bunch of the same power chord bashing rap metalers, but appearance can be decieving. The chops are there, they just don't use them.

However, in Wes Borland's case, I don't think they are. I know he went out and got some guy straight out of GIT to play on a couple of his solo albums. If anyone hasn't heard his stuff outside of Limp Bizkit, it is totally out there weird, like a modernized, dumbed down version of Frank Zappa.

[ChickenScratch]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

Yeah, I heard Big Dumb Face, was not impressed with the playing but it was funny.

[lerxstcat]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

Tim, to politely disagree with you, I Have to say that I like some of Santana's stuff and have enjoyed him live, ditto for Def Leppard, and whatever you think of their songs, to say they're badly produced is just wrong. If you want to say they're OVER-produced, IN YOUR OPINION, then you'd be on firm ground expressing a subjective opinion.

As for Michael Angelo vs. Wes Borland, would say that neither writes great songs, but at least Batio writes exceptional workouts or studies of electric guitar technique. Wes Borland writes 1-finger open-tuned downtuned
power chord riffs and solos that are just noise with all his effects on. It's the difference between a 6-months-level ability for a C-student and a musical prodigy with years of training. Now if you like such a simplistic Neanderthal stomp better than a worthwhile musical exercise, that's your right, but dismissing someone who has a command of his instrument - and yes he could school Vai in some areas, just as Vai could school him in others - is just wrong. That kind of commitment needs to be acknowledged and respected. To bring up Keith Richard to defend Wes Borland is also insulting to Keith Richard - he may not be technical like a Vai or Michael Angelo Batio, but he's forgotten more about guitar, JUST THIS WEEK, than I bet Wes Borland will ever learn. Keith Richard has earned his stardom, LB is basically a joke. So making this a feel-vs.-technique issue is lame, Wes has neither feel OR technique.

I can listen to AC/DC, Bad Religion, Foo Fighters, Dream Theater, Sinergy and Impelliteri with equal enjoyment and appreciation, for different reasons. They all have their appeal from the simple to the melodic to the savage to the spectacular, but they all have something vibrant in the music.
Limp Bizkit has nothing like that, they are dead musically, unless you dig guys singing about beating up their b!tches and sh!t. I don't dig that in rap, nor in rap-metal. Of course that's just my opinion, wich I'm as entitled to as you are to yours.

I agree with Dave though, if you have to set aside the subjective as balancing each other out, then how else do you compare than by quantifiable skill? What other criteria that are objective can you use? You have to use things such as dexterity, picking technique, knowledge of scales, etc... to compare, and while indeed some genres of music do not have a technical competition, others do - or more accurately, not so much a competition as minimum technical abilities required. If that's not your thing, fine and good, but don't diss the whole genre simply because you're not into it. Whether it's true or not, it simply comes across as jealousy of those who play better than you.

"I prefer players with FEEL, man" = "I have no chops and hate those who do"... Sorry, that's how it comes across.

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

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Hippietim; I have to ask...Whats the problem? Why do people get so up tight and PC when someone talks skill? It's the only thing that is factual so I said Bill (I feel) is qualified to say Wes sucks as he is talking about skill.

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No problem really. I'm not uptight about it at all really. Those sorts of comments seem silly to me though "he's a better guitarist because _ _ _ _".

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Bill has already said it best in his last post so I'll leave it at that. I just don't understand why you got your sh!t in a knot. And people musent forget, just because you have shred ability doesn't mean you sacrificed taste, it just means you have more to play with. More ways to express yourself.

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My sh!t isn't in a knot, believe me. Why can't I express my thoughts on the matter? I don't dispute that having technical chops is a good thing - I aspire to that myself. But just having technical chops doesn't mean squat when it comes to making music.

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Maybe I need to post a solo or two to back myself up...Do I come off as some sh!t talker? [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

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I need to do the same. I'm just lazy.

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

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Hippie Tim: Def Leppard may suck in your eyes, but Steve Clark was undeniablely a gifted riff writer, and Phil Collen can absolutely tear up the fretboard. When Pyromania came out, they kicked New Wave right in the teeth. For that, everyone owes them the same debt of gratitude that they owe Bruce Springsteen (who I can't stand) for destroying disco. Oh, and didn't Kiss have a disco album? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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I don't care that Phil can tear up the fretboard, he's never recorded anything I liked (that I know of). I like Springsteen a lot - good song writer and good performer. I don't hate disco altogether although some of it was awful which is the same thing I feel about every single style of music. Dynasty had a few disco type tunes - I'm a sucker though 'cuz I kind of like that album.

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How can you say Clapton sucked after Cream?

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That's easy - Clapton sucked after Cream.

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What about Derek and the Dominoes? Can you revise your statement to say that he sucked after that? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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I don't like any of the Derek and the Dominoes stuff. No revision will be coming. I do have to admit that the live version of Cocaine is pretty cool because Albert Lee kicks ass.

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Tim, to politely disagree with you, I Have to say that I like some of Santana's stuff and have enjoyed him live, ditto for Def Leppard, and whatever you think of their songs, to say they're badly produced is just wrong. If you want to say they're OVER-produced, IN YOUR OPINION, then you'd be on firm ground expressing a subjective opinion.

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In my opinion it is badly produced - it seems to me that saying it over-produced is saying the same thing semantically.

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As for Michael Angelo vs. Wes Borland, would say that neither writes great songs, but at least Batio writes exceptional workouts or studies of electric guitar technique. Wes Borland writes 1-finger open-tuned downtuned
power chord riffs and solos that are just noise with all his effects on. It's the difference between a 6-months-level ability for a C-student and a musical prodigy with years of training. Now if you like such a simplistic Neanderthal stomp better than a worthwhile musical exercise, that's your right, but dismissing someone who has a command of his instrument - and yes he could school Vai in some areas, just as Vai could school him in others - is just wrong. That kind of commitment needs to be acknowledged and respected.

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I don't want to listen to either one of them for enjoyment. I totally respect Michael's abilities and I have one of his videos in hopes of gleaning something.

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To bring up Keith Richard to defend Wes Borland is also insulting to Keith Richard - he may not be technical like a Vai or Michael Angelo Batio, but he's forgotten more about guitar, JUST THIS WEEK, than I bet Wes Borland will ever learn. Keith Richard has earned his stardom, LB is basically a joke.

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Boy, I must not have been clear at all. I wasn't defending Wes Borland at all. I can't stand his stuff. Keith Richards is the whole reason I play the guitar. I love Keith. The Stones are my favorite band. My point was simply that evaluating a guitarist on purely technical merits is sort of silly when you have a guy like Keith that cranks out killer stuff with far less pure technical chops.

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So making this a feel-vs.-technique issue is lame, Wes has neither feel OR technique.

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Agreed. Did you not read the part where I said Wes sucked ass?

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I can listen to AC/DC, Bad Religion, Foo Fighters, Dream Theater, Sinergy and Impelliteri with equal enjoyment and appreciation, for different reasons. They all have their appeal from the simple to the melodic to the savage to the spectacular, but they all have something vibrant in the music.
Limp Bizkit has nothing like that, they are dead musically, unless you dig guys singing about beating up their b!tches and sh!t. I don't dig that in rap, nor in rap-metal. Of course that's just my opinion, wich I'm as entitled to as you are to yours.


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We are in 100% agreement.

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I agree with Dave though, if you have to set aside the subjective as balancing each other out, then how else do you compare than by quantifiable skill?

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What's the point of comparing?

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If that's not your thing, fine and good, but don't diss the whole genre simply because you're not into it.

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When did I diss the whole genre? And what genre are you talking about anyhow?

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Whether it's true or not, it simply comes across as jealousy of those who play better than you.

"I prefer players with FEEL, man" = "I have no chops and hate those who do"... Sorry, that's how it comes across.

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Boy, that's not what I meant at all. I hate that attitude myself. My very simple point was that evaluating a player solely on technical merits is not a very good measure of the musician IMO.

[jgcable]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

Here is the unusual thing about guitar players. You can be great and technical and suck at the same exact time or you can be less than average with no technique or chops and be great or visa-versa.
Examples:
Borland: less than average and loved by millions
Malmsteen: a virtuoso and loved by millions
Mike Angelo: a freak of nature and possibly the most technically proficient guitar player that has ever lived yet most people either hate him or don't know who he is.
Vai: a virtuoso and loved by millions
Cobaine: below average and loved by millions
CC Deville: outstanding player with monster chops and is hated by everybody.
Richie Kotchen: a virtuoso and every bit as good as Paul Gilbert yet nobody knows him.
Billy Joe Armstrong: even Eric Johnson rates him way high up on the guitarist food chain yet most other guitarists think he is just another hack. I personally think he is very good and gets outstanding guitar sound.
Freheley: loved by millions of fans and regarded by most guitarists as a hack even though he wrote some of the best guitar solo's in history and has influenced most everybody who plays rock or metal guitar currently.
Tony Macalpine: IMHO, the greatest guitar player on the planet and possibly one of the best pianists. Nobody knows who he is or cares. He will never get an endorsement deal with Jackson and instead is relegated to play mop up for Steve Vai because of the 2nd tier Carvin endorsement he has.
Take any popularity pole on the 10 top rock guitarists on the planet and if the list included the following, who would win top guitarist?
Malmsteen
Kotchen
Macalpine
Petrucci
Jake-E-Lee
Paul Gilbert
Frank Gambale
Micheal Romeo Batio
Eric Johnson
Wes Borland

Answer: Wes Borland
Popularity is why an endorsement is given. It has nothing to do with chops, writing skill or technical merrits.
Jackson doesn't make its money selling high end guitars to players who know what good truly is. They make their money selling low end guitars to kids who only play them for 6 months and eventually sell them on Ebay (or to Newc).. lol.. for his sick experiments.

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

John - my favorite thing along those lines was back in '85 or so when one of the rock mags had a "best of" issue where Tommy Lee (Home Sweet Home) and Eddie Van Halen (Jump) were in the top 2 slots in the best keyboardist category. Now that was funny as hell.

[Top Jimmy B]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

Its nice to hear someone say something positive about MacAlpine. I too think Tony is one of the most gifted musicians of my generation. His phrasing and touch on the piano is second to none and his guitar playing is both ripping and melodic. It drives me nuts that he has to play Vai's sideman, but at least he's getting some exposure. Maybe he should learn to suck so Jackson can sign him.