Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

[jgcable]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

[ QUOTE ]
John - my favorite thing along those lines was back in '85 or so when one of the rock mags had a "best of" issue where Tommy Lee (Home Sweet Home) and Eddie Van Halen (Jump) were in the top 2 slots in the best keyboardist category. Now that was funny as hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tim, I remember that too and it speaks volumes regarding endorsement deals and who gets them.

[atomic charvel guy]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

from tim-
A good example of what I mean is Keith Richards. Clearly a lot of guys can run circles around him technically but when it comes time to deliver the goods and make some actual music, Keith will be there while a bunch wankers are meedleying away making noise.

thankyou, end of story [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

[ QUOTE ]
from tim-
A good example of what I mean is Keith Richards. Clearly a lot of guys can run circles around him technically but when it comes time to deliver the goods and make some actual music, Keith will be there while a bunch wankers are meedleying away making noise.

thankyou, end of story [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not the end of the story because we are not talking about writing. We are talking about guitar playing and endorsement deals. If you want to talk that jive then I will be FORCED to bring up the fact that Aldo Nova (Les Paul player btw..) had more hits then Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo and Tony Macalpine combined and that guitar player from Loverboy back in the day was always in the top 10. We aren't talking writing skills or hits bro. We are talking about whether or not it is fair for a hack to get a major endorsement deal when the virtuoso's are left sitting on their beds wanking away.

[horns666]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

Well cool...

Tim and CS...yes I agree..I also heard that Phil Collen absolutley smokes...but you would never know buy his "recorded" works....

Is Wes capable of doing more than he's ever showed on record...yeah probably....that goes for most players I would assume...except guys like Malmsteen ...I shure we heard about all there is left from him...no new ground will be covered on his next Rising Force album..not saying that's a bad thing...just saying it's more of the same...which is damned good because I can't even come close to that bastage..

Curt Cobaine...yes he's good sonwriter ...bad guitarists..

There is a difference between song writers and guitar players ...

like any craft , special hobbies , arts , sports ..or whatever...you always have the best examples of the greatests in each catagory..

Guitar is a major part of my life so I value the best players possible...and I know all the players...because I'm obsessed with great guitar playing...thanks to Ed Van Halen.

Guitar heros are different from songwriters...I feel that only the best deserve the privledges of endorsements..
You wouldn't have a 90lb weakling doing a an endorsement for a high protein powerbar...no you will have a guy like WWE's Dave Batista in the add ...am I right...of course i am..

I really believe that magazines like Guitar World and Guitar Player..should be a showcase of the worlds greatest talent for "guitar"..I believe a Guiatr World cover is an honor ...and you must be damned good to be on it...

What about Playboy Magazine...would you put a naked Pygmy from Borneo on the cover...no you will not..that's what National Geographic if for..

They have plenty of music magazines to glorify all the media hype acts...like Rolling Stone , Spin , Hit Parader and yada...that is reserved for sonwriters such as Curt Cobaine...and all the pop music..that go with that whole crap.

Uli Jon Roth was NEVER on the cover of a Guitar World..neither was Frank Marino , Jeff Loomis , Mike Romeo , Tony Macalpine , Vinnie Moore , Greg Howe, and countless other guitar super heros that get totaly ingored ...when you have all these "pop" sonwriters gracing and posing on all the Guitar mags..instead.

and I said this before...Fukk Popularity contest...to be able to have a "contest"...one (like myself) must know ALL the players involved before judging them as a whole...not just the popular ones...I know ALL the players...all of them that "recorded" something...and how else are you going to get to know a players skill without listening to all his recorded works..that's the only way you can judge him...his record is the very representation of who he is...

Like Phill Collins...If his skill level is highly advanced we would never know...I mean why don't he put out a solo thing or at least a single Def Leppard solo that even showed a sign of greatness...no...we don't get that...we just get a Def Leppard song...one that trys to get as much air time as possible ...I don't even see why they bother writing dated radio freindly songs when nobody plays them on the radio nowadays..so why not do the album they want to make instead of sticking to a once catchy "formula"..that no longer works...it's dated ...if they want to be on the radio..then they need to modernize their old sound and try it that way..otherwise jsut do a good hard rock album like the first two records..those were good cds for the time...their classic now.

popularity and talent...two diffrent words...two different meanings..period!

Yes there is a difference between sonwriters and guitarists...we can be both or better at one thing or whatever..but a good songwriter doesn't have to be a virtuoso...and visa versa..man I know plenty of good guitarists that can't write a friggin' note.

and some hacks some make some great tunes...like Jack Frost and Seven Witches...Jack sucks...I smoke his ass...but he writes a good metal song...and that gets him gigs..lots of them....I can write just as good song as him...but I didn't go to the studio yet...give me another few years..I'll get something done..I'll show you. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Then I want my custom Bill Z Bub model Jackson with built in Glory Hole...a place to rest my dark marsupial.. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

You see Tim...we can get along just fine...it just had to wait until after the election...October and November was a little edgy.. [img]/images/graemlins/what.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Top Jimmy B]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are talking about whether or not it is fair for a hack to get a major endorsement deal when the virtuoso's are left sitting on their beds wanking away.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is it you can see into my bedroom?

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

[ QUOTE ]
What about Playboy Magazine...would you put a naked Pygmy from Borneo on the cover...no you will not..that's what National Geographic if for..

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't answer that question without knowing the skills of the Pygmy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[atomic charvel guy]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

i'm just backing tim's being able to see that keith can deliver the goods.

[horns666]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads!

My wife is a pygmy...she's hot..

OK guys...gotta go...I'm learning a Attaxe song..an old Cleveland metal band that I'm recording with this Saturday..

I got to pick up the kid now...

bye..

BecarefulJimmyB... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[lerxstcat]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

[ QUOTE ]
Tim, to politely disagree with you, I Have to say that I like some of Santana's stuff and have enjoyed him live, ditto for Def Leppard, and whatever you think of their songs, to say they're badly produced is just wrong. If you want to say they're OVER-produced, IN YOUR OPINION, then you'd be on firm ground expressing a subjective opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]In my opinion it is badly produced - it seems to me that saying it over-produced is saying the same thing semantically.***Actually, badly-produced would be distorted lack-of-headroom recordings, mixes where instruments weren't audible, etc... Over-produced would be a technically competent recording job where you feel too many effects, overdubs, etc... were used. A mix can be well-produced technically , yet overproduced in those areas. You can hear the instruments and voices on Def Leppard albums quite well, mixed to all be clearly audible. So well-produced can be a tangible, objective thing as regards clean capture of the performance, while your opinion of the effects and overdubs, the artistic part, is subjective.***[ QUOTE ]
As for Michael Angelo vs. Wes Borland, would say that neither writes great songs, but at least Batio writes exceptional workouts or studies of electric guitar technique. Wes Borland writes 1-finger open-tuned downtunedpower chord riffs and solos that are just noise with all his effects on. It's the difference between a 6-months-level ability for a C-student and a musical prodigy with years of training. Now if you like such a simplistic Neanderthal stomp better than a worthwhile musical exercise, that's your right, but dismissing someone who has a command of his instrument - and yes he could school Vai in some areas, just as Vai could school him in others - is just wrong. That kind of commitment needs to be acknowledged and respected.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't want to listen to either one of them for enjoyment. I totally respect Michael's abilities and I have one of his videos in hopes of gleaning something.***Interesting... It's hard to see why you'd have the guy's video if you don't enjoy listening to his playing.Why not a Vai video then? You'd get both enjoyment and chops there.***[ QUOTE ]
To bring up Keith Richard to defend Wes Borland is also insulting to Keith Richard - he may not be technical like a Vai or Michael Angelo Batio, but he's forgotten more about guitar, JUST THIS WEEK, than I bet Wes Borland will ever learn. Keith Richard has earned his stardom, LB is basically a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]Boy, I must not have been clear at all. I wasn't defending Wes Borland at all. I can't stand his stuff. Keith Richards is the whole reason I play the guitar. I love Keith. The Stones are my favorite band. My point was simply that evaluating a guitarist on purely technical merits is sort of silly when you have a guy like Keith that cranks out killer stuff with far less pure technical chops.[ QUOTE ]
So making this a feel-vs.-technique issue is lame, Wes has neither feel OR technique.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed. Did you not read the part where I said Wes sucked ass?***Actually, no! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] this devolved into a players-like-Wes vs. players with chops thread to my perception, so I saw you jumping in on the anti-chops side! My bad, but what's with this gray area sh!t?!? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] It's all supposed to be black and white!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ***[ QUOTE ]
I can listen to AC/DC, Bad Religion, Foo Fighters, Dream Theater, Sinergy and Impelliteri with equal enjoyment and appreciation, for different reasons. They all have their appeal from the simple to the melodic to the savage to the spectacular, but they all have something vibrant in the music.Limp Bizkit has nothing like that, they are dead musically, unless you dig guys singing about beating up their b!tches and sh!t. I don't dig that in rap, nor in rap-metal. Of course that's just my opinion, wich I'm as entitled to as you are to yours.

[/ QUOTE ]We are in 100% agreement.*** Excellent! [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] Party Time!! *** [ QUOTE ]
I agree with Dave though, if you have to set aside the subjective as balancing each other out, then how else do you compare than by quantifiable skill?

[/ QUOTE ]What's the point of comparing?***Comparing is fun! You measure your ability by comparison to that of others in all fields of endeavor***[ QUOTE ]
If that's not your thing, fine and good, but don't diss the whole genre simply because you're not into it.

[/ QUOTE ]When did I diss the whole genre? And what genre are you talking about anyhow? ***I'd say the genre of technically schooled players in general. I do think that understanding the structure of music and being able to play it fluently is a desirable thing. Dismissing that as of no importance in making music is a error IMO. *** [ QUOTE ]
Whether it's true or not, it simply comes across as jealousy of those who play better than you. "I prefer players with FEEL, man" = "I have no chops and hate those who do"... Sorry, that's how it comes across.

[/ QUOTE ]Boy, that's not what I meant at all. I hate that attitude myself. My very simple point was that evaluating a player solely on technical merits is not a very good measure of the musician IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]***Solely, I agree. But Technical training and ability is really the only part that can be externally trained, so why neglect it? It's not like it was when I was a kid, when you had to train yourself by ear and trial and error, and watching bands play live, because the teachers were all either classical or jazz guys with bitter contempt for all rock. Nowadays there are plenty of very talented rock and metal teachers, even those who will learn and teach the Limp Bizkit and other type of stuff they don't like, plus instructional videos and other online resources that pretty much came out in the last 10 years. They don't HAVE to flop around in the dark anymore, so why not learn the structures of music if you're going to make it? don't think it's ever wrong to have training, and it can never be too much. However, it CAN be not enough. If you can't follow ABCDEFG when playing, that's pretty much a handicap. You don't need to understand complex music theory, but everyone benefitsfrom knowing major, minor, dimished and augmented scales and chords. Those are the things you can teach, structural things. Feel you can't, but if a guy has feel, heart and emotion, yet can't communicate that to other players because of no understanding of the structure, then his inspiration is trapped inside a shell, almost as if he were autistic. I have jammed with singers who had raw ability, yet would communicate ambiguously about "feelings and power" and could never come in at the right time, in cover songs or originals.Then you try to explain that teaching them a few basics about counting the bars, using terms like accents, breaks and rests, and they get bent; you're "talking down" to them! ot really, I just don't see why it takes an hour and a half to communicate that you want a stop break on bar 6, before coming back into the verse on bar 8! WTF is so bad about learning to communicate and count so you know where you are in a song, instead of floating and guessing?? Someone like that, who could bloom with 2 or 3 basic music theory lessons, will refuse to learn and remain crippled musically. That's the thing I see, a lot, that makes no sense to me.***

[noodlesatf]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

Is it just me, or does this technique versus feel debate smack of threads on alt.guitar ten years ago?

[neilli]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

All of this cos I looked at the Limp Bizkit web page in a very bored moment at work....!!

[noodlesatf]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

[ QUOTE ]
All of this cos I looked at the Limp Bizkit web page in a very bored moment at work....!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I've ever been that bored... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[sevser]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

Bigdaddy; Opinions are based on their recorded work because that's what they made public, what else can we comment on? If some one is a better than they have shown, cool but, don't fault someone for basing an opinion on the only music they have been given to judge.

BTW Angelo and Nitro were awful IMO but, his solo stuff is quite tasteful. I think (Oops, here is my opinion again) he is more interesting than Via. Check out Planet Gemini.

Tim; perhaps your sh!t isn't in a knot but, you felt the need to single me out and comment on "my opinions" so I just wondered why my opinions sparked you to post.

Many "artist" are crated so the record companies are in total control of the "artist" and the majority follows the trends only because they are told to.

This is why so many bands are done after a short run and no one can figure out what they liked about them in the first place. Limp is just the record company catering to another part of society that they can profit off. I don’t blame them but, I’m not fooled by them either.

If anyone actually thinks everyone has to have talent to make it, think again. The Britney Spears of the world didn’t play small club while she was working her way to the top. She was hot and willing to do as she is told and every genre has these bands. Spears was thrown on MTV with a million dollar video and when the majority sew it they automatically accepted it as the next big thing based on one thing…Image. Just like the boy bands and just like the rappers that use their drug/blood money to produce and promote themselves and then sign their “hommies” keep the controversy machine going and when they start to get even too stagnant to fool the average listener the morph into hip-hop where they get actual singers to throw in a melody or just “sample” a classic tried and true hook and throwing it aimlessly in the mix. How lame can you get! Fukkin make your own melody! Funny how they don’t throw in some B-side sh!t that never caught on and mad the Billboard…

So when I see this kind of stuff in the genre I listen to I’ll call it as I see it because that’s what it takes to keep this sh!t down. When people say…”Oh they have something that got them where they are.” And can’t even point the “Thing” out they are just perpetuating the media machine.

There was once upon a time when you had to have it all…Gimmick, looks, skill and talent. For me, if you must lack in one of these areas just don’t let it be talent or skill.

You guys that defend something you don’t even like, illustrates my point perfectly. Your subconscious tells you there must be something and you defend it. You are not alone, for if not for you there would be no need for McDonald commercials.

There you go…Limp (and the like) is like the “Mc Band” and their videos are Commercials. I just don’t like Mc Donalds and I fukking HATE their commercials! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[atomic charvel guy]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

lerxster,
keith and jimi were my first heros. i have a giant lips and tongue tattoo on my right arm.
i was at this local mall called south coast plaza, kinda upsacle place, and i had my signature beach rag on with tats exposed and this 14 year old girl comes running up to me and says- "i really love your big mouth tatoo!!!"
i started cracking up, i felt like i was 78 years old.

[hippietim]

Re: Wes Borland (Limp Bizkit) plays Jackson Rhoads

[ QUOTE ]
Tim; perhaps your sh!t isn't in a knot but, you felt the need to single me out and comment on "my opinions" so I just wondered why my opinions sparked you to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly just because I felt like it. No more than that. I was waiting for a big ass compile to finish here at work so I spewed some thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys that defend something you don’t even like, illustrates my point perfectly. Your subconscious tells you there must be something and you defend it. You are not alone, for if not for you there would be no need for McDonald commercials.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that - who was defending something they don't like?