Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

[Sunbane]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

WTF? Do I smell penis envy in here or what? [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

I used to have a demo/promo tape with Dragonforce from way back - mid 90's or so, when the death metal scene was reaching full swing. They were doing this stuff back then, and I can honestly say that their lead guitarist at the time (the asian guy), had absolutely INSANE chops already then. From what I can tell by this video, his/their style is a lot more varied now, and he uses the whammy pedal in a much more tasteful manner than before. I was surprised to see that both guitarists are really good, because I always thought that the asian dude was their main lead player.

This isn't exactly my kind of metal (I agree with Bill; the stuff is too upbeat for me), but I could listen to it just to hear the mad shredding! And KUDOS to Dragonforce for sticking to their guns through all this time!

Awesome vid as well!

[horns666]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

Yep Sunbane..that's why I bought the dragonforce stuff..I'm a sucker for metal and shredding..even tho they are a bit too "upbeat" for me..I support the metal scene and do my part and buy the cds..all of them.

If it's "metal" and it "shreds" ..I own it...no matter what genre! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It's my one and only passion..well besides weed and puss. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

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Give me "earache" Johnson (Billy Gibbons coined that).

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ehh, Billy loves EJ, he has mentioned it many times

[txcharvel]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

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Maybe I should rephrase my comment and say that I speak for all the metalheads that were gigging in the 80's and appreciate chops from all members of a band.
Many of the younger generation just doesn't get it. Just like I don't get all the cookie monster vocal sounding pissed off metal bands that are so popular today.
Back in my day... a singer like the guy in Shadows Fall or COB or Korn etc... wouldn't even have made it past the audition and if a guitarist couldn't shred like Lynch or DeMartini they were considered a rhythm guitarist.
I miss the day of chops and well written and performed songs even if alot of the magic was created in the studio.
Bands like Europe, TNT, Y&T, Stryper, Queensryche etc...
Great musicians, great songs, great videos and great tours.
I was recently listening to a Nirvana song on the radio and I commented to my bandmate.."How the fuck did this shit kill metal??". I am so happy the Seattle grunge thing was a fad. I knew it would be. These are the things I think about when I see a video like this.
I can tell you one thing about this band based on this video and this song only. They did alot of rehearsing.

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What he said [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[akoch]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

I don't know why somebody would not appriciate what these guy not only 'can' but do. I loved the vid. Good music and great playing. Yes a bit upbeat, but hey... not the big deal right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And yes, when you hear these kinds of chops - an Ibanez comes to mind, I agree. That's why I keep the ration always 50/50 - Ibanezes and Jacksons [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

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Metal seems to have the best overall muscians ...it is a very demanding form of music that just keeps pushing the envelope further and further..especially guitars.

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sorry Bill, but I can't agree with that because Metal is EASY compared to jazz/fusion/latin/oriental/classical/flamecno etc.

You said that the best metal stuff comes from Europe in your opinion.
Well there is a one big difference between European and American music. Europe's music is melodical, American or any other continent's music is rhythmical.
Europe lacks of rhythm, 99% of the tunes are all in simple 4/4 beat including metal.
Europeans don't have the groove.

Now, durning the early 20th century and earlier, black people had brought african tribal rhythms to America, native americans (specially in south, Brazil etc.) had difficult syncopated rhythms and polyrhythms, Spain travellers brought Flamenco, Chinese showed the pentatonic scale, Rest of the Europeans introduced their traditional classical music, orchestra stuff and playing techniques etc.
Now, some black guys in New Orleans put it all together and jazz was born. While the normal people played cheesy estrad/orchestra music, jazz dudes did all the shredding, 16th note runs, difficult beats, grooves etc. They were technically superb on whatever instrument they played: piano, clarnet, sax, drums, guitar, contrabass or whatever.

And all that became a fundamental part of North and South American music. Everything in America has groove, everything in Europe is 4/4.
Now comparing American and Europian metal, well 90% of Nu-Metal has polyrhythms and grooves wich has all came from jazz etc. Europian metal has the same silly beat all the time. Now wich one is more advanced [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] A lot of people have called Nu-Metal's guitarists talented hacks. Now I can't agree because a lot of them can shred very well. Like the Staind guy Mike Mushook, he was MacAlpine's student and was so good that Tony wanted him in his band. But Mike has never played a solo in Staind. When somone doesn't plays solo that doesn't mean he can't. Or as Newc said "I CAN do it, but SHOULD I do it?". That attitude has also came from jazz, musicians don't want to play everything they know, it's more of a feel thing and seeing what fits into the song.

Now I've played both, metal and jazz, and I realised that metal has limited all the possibilities you can do with an instrument. I've never seen a metal guitar player who has blugrass or flamenco player's chops or insane jazz fingerings. I mean metal is cool and everything but it is too "in the box". While any acomplished fusion player can play a solo in a metal track I doubt that most of the metal players can do something in a jazz band. Same thing with bass players and drummers, jazz guys have unlimited amount of chops and grooves whil metal guys are in the box.

[naelpierre]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

Dragonforce !!! I saw them live here... Everyone went to the gig with Viking helmets and plastic swords/axes [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] And none of the solo's are computer assisted, even all the wierd sounds he makes are done by him ) When i saw them live it seemed one of them was playing an RR3 ? Well at least a Bolt On Rhoads... and he sometimes has pictures taken with it too....

[horns666]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

E I just read your whole post and the whole time I'm thinking of bands such as ..well Theory In Practice, Cynic, Watchtower, Symbyosis, Coroner, The alrum, Capharnaum, Spastic Ink, Sceptic, Martyr, Aethist, Arsis, Gory Blister, Sadist, Sadus, Lunaris, Farmakon, Broken Hope, Death..well my mind raced into a complete blur ..

basically putting the kabash on your entire speal..I'm aware of the music that you stated..but are you aware of ANY of these bands..there is much more..I can continue.

You see in my music endevours..I search, find and listen to ..um.."out of the box"..I turn off the radio, turn off the TV and put the Guitar World down and I research and discover music (metal) all on my own....and I discover there is MUCH more out there than is well.."known" to most...because those bands that I just mentioned isn't marketable due to the fact that they ALL pushed the envelope to ridiculous heights...therfore only have a cult like following to be enjoyed by sick fucks like me.. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

The only Mushook I know of that Staind..was in my underwear...but I wasn't feeling very well that day! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Billy

[JRTME]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

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Look I can respect the ability but am I the only one that thinks this is mindless wankage?

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I usually don't speak for the JCF masses but I will make an exception this time...

Yes... you are the only one.

The song, the riffs and the solo's are all melodic, they all fit the song perfectly and they are played and recorded to perfection. The guitar work in this song shows how far you can push the envelope on a twin shredder band.
Can anybody say Cacophony???

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I guess I'm not the only one that thinks that. Also what was so great about Cacophony? Cacophony was ok at best. Dragon's Kiss and Perpetual Burn where better then any Cacophony stuff.

[jgcable]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

I have heard many jazz and fusion players. They play different... not better then metal players.

Regarding players who can shred but choose not to?
The only thing you can judge a guitarist on is their recorded or live performances. If they don't shred live or in the studio, they aren't shredders.

I feel that metal is the hardest style of music to be considered a shredder in. It requires precise playing in the box.
Some of you have claimed that playing in the box is easier than playing out of the box the way fusion and jazz players play. I don't buy that.
Playing in the box required a more precise technique because most of the time you are playing specific scales modes and patterns. Miss one note and the entire passage sounds like ass (or clams as Twisteramps calls it).
When a jazz or fusion player flubs a note they can turn it into the beginning of an entirely new direction for their solo. Playing out of the box allows a player to improvise and take more chances without the worry of missing a note in that 28 NPS run. Jazz and fusion players also play with less vibrato, bending, legato and hammer-ons. They generally pick every note, use sweeps and the pull-off technique.
IMHO... correct properly placed vibrato is the hardest technique fo any guitarist to master. Uli Jon Roth is a master of vibrato techniques.
A metal shredder also has to contend with controlling tons of gain and a master of all the "tricks" of the trade. Ghost bends, whammy techniques, pull offs, hammer-ons, legato, sweeps, string skipping, different picking techniques, staccato, modes, scales, alternate tunings etc... and they need to master all of these techniques while standing in front of a wall of amps in a stadium atmosphere while they are spinning the guitar around their backs, playing with their teeth, swinging off of ropes and running around the stage for 2 hours straight every night of the week plus they have to look great while they are doing it.
So.. in conclusion, metal shredders have it tougher than any other style of music.

[naelpierre]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

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You said that the best metal stuff comes from Europe in your opinion.
Well there is a one big difference between European and American music. Europe's music is melodical, American or any other continent's music is rhythmical.
Europe lacks of rhythm, 99% of the tunes are all in simple 4/4 beat including metal.
Europeans don't have the groove.


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America got it's music through European/African/etc people and then progressed on it. It is as a nation only a few hundred years old remember. Parts of Europe have as much "groove" as parts of America as there are many people from many nations around. Of course if you want to talk about traditional European music we can discuss traditional American Music, i.e. "Native" American music. Don't think europe doesn't have it's share of Jazz/Blues etc players.

[MBreinin]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

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Give me "earache" Johnson (Billy Gibbons coined that).

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ehh, Billy loves EJ, he has mentioned it many times

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I'm not saying he doesn't. However, that is what he calls him. I know because one of my best friends heard it right from his mouth while hanging out with him. Maybe it is a name he uses in a tongue in cheek fashion.

Mike

[Endrik]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

I was affraid to watch this thread again [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Bill, I know all the those bands you mentioned, I've heard them since I was 14-15 years old. They are good in what they do but trust me, I've heard better players.

JG, so Steve Vai who is mostly a fusion player and administers every guitar trick and noise ever invented is crappier than some metal shredder???? Fusion player's do bend and vibrate if there is a need to do that. No sweep picking, legato etc. in Fusion??? You gotta be kiddin' me. Ever heard of Frank Gamble? Shwan Lane? Django Reinhardt? Hell, Paco De Lucia sweep picks with his fingers on a classical guitar. Now this is a precise playing. Or what about Steve Morse, "Tumeni Notes", dude picks every arpeggio. Now that is a precision. You said Scales and Modes. Well it happens to be that jazz musicians are by far the most schooled players. They know bazillion scales, chords etc. And speaking' of vibrato, you know there is a big zanr called Rock music. Rock players such as Demartini, Schenker, Sykes etc. have the best vibratos IMO. Now I don't know any metal players who have that good vibrato. And Uli Jon Roth a metal player??? I do apriciate 80's rock guitarists, now they were the real players, but some avarage metal band player, nah, nothing exciting about it. Or are you putting rock and metal players in the same pot? I think there is a big difference between Van Halen/Ratt etc. and Black Sabbath/Slayer etc.
And speaking of playing in or out of the box. I've done both of them. I don't see how playing in a box can be harder than playing out of the box. I think that playing some minor scale up and down is easier then breaking all the rules and same time actually sounding good.

Now everyone is entiteled to their own opinion, I respect allmost everyone's opinion here... JG, Bill, Mike etc.
But I'm speaking from my personal experience. As I have played both, metal and jazz music. I have seen metal concerts and I have seen jazz concerts. I have spoken to metal players and jazz players. I have done tons of reasearch, analyzing and whatnot. And the sum of my experince is that metal is not the hardest style of music. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You guys can say whatever you want but there is nothing that changes my mind.

[jgcable]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

[ QUOTE ]
I was affraid to watch this thread again [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Bill, I know all the those bands you mentioned, I've heard them since I was 14-15 years old. They are good in what they do but trust me, I've heard better players.

JG, so Steve Vai who is mostly a fusion player and administers every guitar trick and noise ever invented is crappier than some metal shredder???? Fusion player's do bend and vibrate if there is a need to do that. No sweep picking, legato etc. in Fusion??? You gotta be kiddin' me. Ever heard of Frank Gamble? Shwan Lane? Django Reinhardt? Hell, Paco De Lucia sweep picks with his fingers on a classical guitar. Now this is a precise playing. Or what about Steve Morse, "Tumeni Notes", dude picks every arpeggio. Now that is a precision. You said Scales and Modes. Well it happens to be that jazz musicians are by far the most schooled players. They know bazillion scales, chords etc. And speaking' of vibrato, you know there is a big zanr called Rock music. Rock players such as Demartini, Schenker, Sykes etc. have the best vibratos IMO. Now I don't know any metal players who have that good vibrato. And Uli Jon Roth a metal player??? I do apriciate 80's rock guitarists, now they were the real players, but some avarage metal band player, nah, nothing exciting about it. Or are you putting rock and metal players in the same pot? I think there is a big difference between Van Halen/Ratt etc. and Black Sabbath/Slayer etc.
And speaking of playing in or out of the box. I've done both of them. I don't see how playing in a box can be harder than playing out of the box. I think that playing some minor scale up and down is easier then breaking all the rules and same time actually sounding good.

Now everyone is entiteled to their own opinion, I respect allmost everyone's opinion here... JG, Bill, Mike etc.
But I'm speaking from my personal experience. As I have played both, metal and jazz music. I have seen metal concerts and I have seen jazz concerts. I have spoken to metal players and jazz players. I have done tons of reasearch, analyzing and whatnot. And the sum of my experince is that metal is not the hardest style of music. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You guys can say whatever you want but there is nothing that changes my mind.

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Endrik, this is what I posted:
"Jazz and fusion players also play with less vibrato, bending, legato and hammer-ons. They generally pick every note, use sweeps and the pull-off technique."

Steve Vai is not a fusion/jazz player. He is a metal shredder and has been since he left Zappa unless I am missing something here. I didn't realize DLR, Alcatrazz, Whitesnake and his solo albums were Jazz and Fusion. They sound like metal to me. Some of his solo stuff is off the wall but I wouldn't call it fusion or jazz.

Regarding playing in or out of the box.. to me its a simple. Playing in the box requires a guitarist to follow rules. Precise scales, modes and patterns are all rules. Rules are harder to follow. Most accomplished shredders can freestyle in and out of the box so its sort of a moot point.
Regarding Uli Jon Roth... The Scorpions are metal. Electric Sun for the most part... is metal. Uli may write some crazy off the wall stuff but his guitar solos are metal based.
He has the best bending and vibrato technique of any guitarist I have ever heard in any genre. Lynch is outstanding too with his vertical vibrato technique and of course there is the maestro himself.. Yngwie Malmsteen. I also think that Richie Blackmore has an incredible vibrato feel.
This is a good topic. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You know your shit. I respect that. [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[MBreinin]

Re: Dudes... You Have To Watch This Video!

I would say that Vai is most definitely a "complete" player. He plays metal gigs for whatever reason, money most likely, however his solo offerings are certainly fusion, because they do not adhere to any specific style.

I think the best Vibrato comes from players that are steeped in the blues. John Sykes has probably the most lyrical vibrato going, but SRV probably had the best vibrato of all time. Yngwie's vibrato is very, very impressive. I have not heard enough of Uli, but I certainly respect the opinions of those who have, so I will assume his vibrato is also phenomenal. I will tell you who has some killer vibrato....Blues Saraceno. I also like Eric Johnson's vibrato, he has several very pleasing techniques.

However, when I think of "metal", or what is considered metal today...outstanding vibrato and bending technique does not pop into my head. Chug and sweep with an alternate tuning does. '80s metal, yes, very bend and vibrato laden. And let's not forget Ed's vibrato and attack which I would certainly qualify as exceptional. The core "shredders" of the '80s version of metal were very well accomplished at bending and shaking, Lynch, DiMartini, Bratta, EVH, Sykes, YJM, etc.

I just don't see this type of playing much anymore...but I am hoping that it comes back.

I will also stand with Endrik. I think the world of fusion and jazz offers the most complete and talented guitar players.

Mike