Gary sold IT...

[Rupe]

Re: Gary sold IT...

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An excellent condition 59 with a deep flametop can sell for over 100K, since the flametops were very rare, mosy were plaintop. The plaintops can sell for 20K in great condition.

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Ok, apparently you've been asleep for 10-15 years...wake up time!
The going rate for a nicely figured '58-'60 Standard is now over $300K, and a plaintop at about 1/2 that price. P-90 Goldtops in great condition are breaking the $50K barrier.

[ QUOTE ]
I think though that there is little interest in Gary Moore over here though. He is a guitarists guitarist. We all know who he is, but there is little crossover to the general public.

Peter Green even less.

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To the guys who have the kind of investment capitol for a guitar like this, Peter Greene is one of the most relevant guitarists EVER, and remains so to this day. Along with Mike Bloomfield and Jimmy Page, these three guys essentially created the mystique around the Flametop. Others like Gibbons and Kossoff added to the fire.
From a lot of the comments I frequently hear, I don't think too many people (there are some) on this forum truly understand the vintage market and who the "players" are. Lots of opinions, very little reality.

[Endrik]

Re: Gary sold IT...

"We all know who he is, but there is little crossover to the general public."

general public doesn't buy these guitars, the players do [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[markb]

Re: Gary sold IT...

[ QUOTE ]

To the guys who have the kind of investment capitol for a guitar like this, Peter Greene is one of the most relevant guitarists EVER, and remains so to this day. Along with Mike Bloomfield and Jimmy Page, these three guys essentially created the mystique around the Flametop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong...the guys who have the investment capitol often don't play and don't care about guitars in general, they buy for investment reasons alone. Having money and knowing who peter green is = no connection. Think a lot of the japanese CEO's who have bought a lot of these guitars are big peter green fans? Eh, no.

Page, Bloomfield and Green = Les Paul mystique? Try Page Beck and Clapton, all who played 58's and 59's, Bloomfield as a lesser player and green very minor, if at all.

You are right about the vintage market in general though as far as I am concerned..asleep is a good word for it. I am out of touch with it...I don't claim to know it in depth...I was more commenting on the fact that this guitar I don't think is on the same level as a clapton guitar or pearly gates etc for various reasons

[noodlesatf]

Re: Gary sold IT...

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Clapton got a little bit less than mil for one of his strat and that wasn't nearly as legendary guitar as this one.

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[img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] That Strat was Blackie, his main Strat from the Layla sessions forward. There aren't too many guitars more legendary than that.

[Endrik]

Re: Gary sold IT...

yes he sold Blackie but two other strats as well and he got A LOT for them

[MBreinin]

Re: Gary sold IT...

Clapton also sold Brownie, which he also used on the Layla sessions.

Mike

[jwoods986]

Re: Gary sold IT...

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yes he sold Blackie but two other strats as well and he got A LOT for them

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Those guitars went for a lot but they were also bought by a corporation (Guitar Center) not an individual.

[pro-fusion]

Re: Gary sold IT...

I think most Les Paul investment buyers would be VERY aware of this guitar, and I'm sure it sold for a lot of money, even in shitty condition. Peter Green had a big influence on the Les Paul mystique, even if his Q factor isn't that great among the general public--you mean there was a Fleetwood Mac before Stevie Nicks? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Face it, it's a museum piece and deserves to be displayed as such.

[MBreinin]

Re: Gary sold IT...

[ QUOTE ]
I think most Les Paul investment buyers would be VERY aware of this guitar, and I'm sure it sold for a lot of money, even in shitty condition. Peter Green had a big influence on the Les Paul mystique, even if his Q factor isn't that great among the general public--you mean there was a Fleetwood Mac before Stevie Nicks? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Face it, it's a museum piece and deserves to be displayed as such.

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No, it needs to be played by ME!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

It is a piece of musical history, especially considering the fact that Peter Green pulled a semi-Syd Barret.

Mike

[markb]

Re: Gary sold IT...

[ QUOTE ]
I think most Les Paul investment buyers would be VERY aware of this guitar, and I'm sure it sold for a lot of money, even in shitty condition.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you're probably right. It is a storied guitar with a lot of history. I don't think it would have as broad appeal as some other insruments, but there is core of people who would probably pay big cash for it.

I am out of touch with vintage pricing, as I stopped paying attention a long time ago. But knowing prices and understanding the market forces that drive them are two different things. Green, Bloomfield etc were part of a group of players that helped drive interest among musicians in playing the instruments, at that time. But that is something differerent, an interest in playing vs. an interest in collecting .As far as why a 58-60 LPS might fetch 250K these days, its because there were only 1700 made, combined with the fact that Jimmy Page (and he is really 85% of the reason) and Clapton and Billy Gibbons are adored by the generation of baby boomers that has made these guitars so collectible. Green and Bloomfield have not driven the pricing of the guitars, really at all. Supply and demand: Page created the bulk of the demand, supply was limited to begin with.

Same with strats. Buddy Holly and Hank Marvin made thousands of people interested in playing strats. But the reason an old strat can fetch 50K is because of the iconic images of Hendrix playing a white strat at woodstock and Clapton's ever present blackie. Factor in the other aspect: strats are more popular than Les Pauls. Always have been. They should be more valuable than old les pauls. But there were thousands of old strats made, compared with just the 1700 les pauls with the burst finishes, of which only a couple hundred were flametops, making them even more valuable. I don't agree with Rupes comments on the vintage market at all, other than pricing.

[Rupe]

Re: Gary sold IT...

[ QUOTE ]
Page, Bloomfield and Green = Les Paul mystique? Try Page Beck and Clapton, all who played 58's and 59's, Bloomfield as a lesser player and green very minor, if at all.


[/ QUOTE ]
You are big time wrong here. How many owners of these guitars do you know? I've talked with several over the years (I used to be a regular on the show circuit in the 90's) and I used to speak with Vic Da Pra fairly often. The guys I mentioned are the guys that put these instruments on the map for most players who collected them, not Clapton or Beck (neither of whom is typically associated with a flame top...Beck with a refinned goldtop in oxblood with added hums and Clapton with a refinned goldtop in trans red).

Your point about the investors is valid...I was talking about the original group of collectors who horded these instruments...they were players as well. The true speculative investor didn't enter the scene until the 80's...these guitars had already earned "legendary" status by then and were way out of reach of most people by breaking the 5 figure barrier.
None of the guys who I know who have these instruments could even dream of adding another to their collections at todays rates...they were lucky/smart and bought them very long ago.

[Rupe]

Re: Gary sold IT...

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah you're probably right. It is a storied guitar with a lot of history. I don't think it would have as broad appeal as some other insruments, but there is core of people who would probably pay big cash for it.

I am out of touch with vintage pricing, as I stopped paying attention a long time ago. But knowing prices and understanding the market forces that drive them are two different things. Green, Bloomfield etc were part of a group of players that helped drive interest among musicians in playing the instruments, at that time. But that is something differerent, an interest in playing vs. an interest in collecting .As far as why a 58-60 LPS might fetch 250K these days, its because there were only 1700 made, combined with the fact that Jimmy Page (and he is really 85% of the reason) and Clapton and Billy Gibbons are adored by the generation of baby boomers that has made these guitars so collectible. Green and Bloomfield have not driven the pricing of the guitars, really at all. Supply and demand: Page created the bulk of the demand, supply was limited to begin with.

Same with strats. Buddy Holly and Hank Marvin made thousands of people interested in playing strats. But the reason an old strat can fetch 50K is because of the iconic images of Hendrix playing a white strat at woodstock and Clapton's ever present blackie. Factor in the other aspect: strats are more popular than Les Pauls. Always have been. They should be more valuable than old les pauls. But there were thousands of old strats made, compared with just the 1700 les pauls with the burst finishes, of which only a couple hundred were flametops, making them even more valuable. I don't agree with Rupes comments on the vintage market at all, other than pricing.

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I'm speaking from experience...not opinion. What are your credentials to come off as an authority on the drivers of the vintage market, specifically Les Pauls? Sounds like a lot of opinion to me based on your personal perception of how things are...which is lacking in the all important reality component.
My comments are based on years of shows and conversations with vintage dealers and collectors, and managing a guitar store with a sizable vintage inventory. And you?

[markb]

Re: Gary sold IT...

I have as much experience buying and selling 58 and 59 les pauls as you: 0
My first guitar was a '66 strat. Yours?

Bluesbreaker era Clapton is usually the first word out of a les paul collectors mouth, regardless of the non flametop...it was "that sound".
It is not possible for a an association with Peter Green to drive a guitar into the 250k range. He does not have that kind of status. Prices are what they are today for other reasons, a lot of them demographic. I disagree about pricing back then, because in the early 80's vintage prices were well within reach of a lot of people, but the interest wasn't nearly as great.

Meh. Not that I don't think you know what you are talking about. But vintage guitar prices exploded in the late 80's early 90's for demographic reasons, as was long predicted. I followed the vintage market back then, and knew collectors, and I went to some shows as well. Not as many as you, by a long shot.

[Rupe]

Re: Gary sold IT...

You're right...I haven't bought or sold any myself, but I am familiar with several people who have and I believe the knowledge that they have shared with me certainly counts for something. I think you are missing the big picture as well as my point in this discussion. Peter Green or Mike Bloomfield are not driving prices today, but they were the ones who initially started the craze for these guitars (prior to Page even...he was a Green fan) much like Hendrix did for the Strat. The craze then morphs into something else entirely and becomes based on hype, scarcity, desirability, investment speculation, and on and on. Those are the things that drive the LP market now...but it all started way back in the 60's and early 70's because of the guys that I mentioned.
Your comments on the vintage market not taking off until the late 80's is true for the most part, but not for the late 50's LP Standards (or prewar Martins). These were being horded in the mid 60's up through the early 70's. By the mid 70's, you essentially had to be a part of an elite inner circle to get one. Prices in the early 80's eclipsed $10K and have increased exponentially ever since. This increase is not due to the players I mentioned anymore (its all supply and demand), but they started the ball rolling.

And my first guitar was a virtually unplayable 50's Stella acoustic (I still have it), followed up by a '68 Gretsch Streamliner (I wish I still had it).

[RacerX]

Re: Gary sold IT...

Who da hell is Peter Green? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]