Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

[Newc]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Au contraire, I had a very wonderful Ibanez EX350 that kicked ass - Wizard II neck, a better trem than the Jackson units, all-access neck pocket, and h-s-h. I bought it brand new and had it for about 5 years. It took Ibanez 3 months to send a replacement tremolo when I needed it. I don't care if Ibanez has greatly improved their Customer Service since then, they didn't do it when it mattered - when I needed Customer Service.
I'm sure Jackson is no better, but at least I know I can replace the trem (or any other part) myself when I want by buying it online. There was no such option for Ibanez parts at the time - you either bought it new from the company or you bought another new or used guitar.

As for sales levels, that's common sense - what model did the last MTV guitar hero play? What model was featured in so many movies and videos over the last 10 years? What model is given away to every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a record contract? Ibanez. It is a proven fact of business that free advertisement and flooding the market with your product will increase sales - just look at Britney, Backstreet, New Kids On The Block, etc etc etc. It's also a proven business fact that when you give celebrities free product they become walking advertisements of that product, and it always translates into the consumer identifying with that celebrity when they buy that same product - "Bob Vila uses Brand-X tools, and Bob knows more about tools than me, so I'll buy Brand-X as well". Never mind that another company makes the same quality, only less expensive.

Ibanez guitars are good - Ibanez the company are crap.

Newc

[Newc]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Ivan Boesky was a success as well. So were the execs at Enron. While the heads at Ibanez are not bilking billions out of the company, that doesn't mean they aren't doing something equally as bad. Customer Service means Serving the Customer - past, present, and future. You *must* be there for every customer when they call no matter if they spend $1 or $1 million. Every customer is equal regardless of social status or income because they affect your Customer Service record.

Steve Vai would not say one bad word about Ibanez, but what if everyone who actually bought from Ibanez did? The company would lose their place in the market because Joe Public would avoid a product when people that they know voice their negative experiences with that company. Not just one or two people, but imagine if everyone you know that plays guitar told you that the Brian Moore i-series had no tone, were hard to play, and had poor construction. Would you go find one to see for yourself? Maybe out of curiosity, but you would still approach it with their reviews in mind, and minor flaws would be magnified because of that. Most people would go simply on word of mouth and avoid the line completely, even if their mega rockstar guitar hero used one (see the KH-2 arguments).

Ibanez have succeeded mostly through their freebie endorsement policy, and I agree completely that Jackson should have gotten off their high horse and played dirty pool like everyone else, but hindsight is always 20/20, and market saturation is not the be-all/end-all of business.

A lack of Customer Service reflects on the bottom line, because buyers will go elsewhere to spend their money, and every time your competitor sells one, that's one less you've sold.

Newc

[khabibissell]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

All I've got to say is that I had an RG560 for about 12 yrs. I sold it and bought a bunch of Jacksons/Charvels. While I love Jacksons and Charvels, I missed that RG so much I had to buy another one... This time an RG3120. It is a GREAT guitar.

[Accept2]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

1 mistake there Newc....How does sucess make Ibanez a bad company? They have been under the same ownership since 1906, while Charvel/Jackson has had 5 different owners since 1978.....That fact says alot. The guitar business is a bad business to be in, and if you dont know how to run your business it will show. Ibanez are an excellent company that has simply succeeded in a tough business. As for Charvel/Jackson, they are simply another name tag to be added to the Fender list. In a couple of years, they'll just end up like Guild............

[Cloud Strife]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

I knew that picture would bring a talibanez VS jackson discussion [img]graemlins/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[lerxstcat]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Newc, sorry you had a rough time with Ibanez over the trem, but did ANYBODY sell replacements online back then? I don't know, but I doubt it. 3 months really does suck, though.

It's not dirty pool to give free products
to celebs, it's just good marketing, but
yes, Jackson should've done it years ago,
and they mght not be owned by Fender now
if they had. Maybe now that they ARE owned by Fender, they will start giving 'em away to generate sales. Fender does
know how to move the product, and it doesn't necessarily follow that the quality of Jacksons will decline now. We
have to wait and see what they produce.

BTW, many Ibanez endorsees DO have to pay for their guitars, at cost. They're the
low-level "Tom Dick and Harry" acts you mentioned, of whom I know at least one personally, and he pays for his.

[lerxstcat]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Newc, sorry you had a rough time with Ibanez over the trem, but did ANYBODY sell replacements online back then? I don't know, but I doubt it. 3 months really does suck, though.

It's not dirty pool to give free products
to celebs, it's just good marketing, but
yes, Jackson should've done it years ago,
and they mght not be owned by Fender now
if they had. Maybe now that they ARE owned by Fender, they will start giving 'em away to generate sales. Fender does
know how to move the product, and it doesn't necessarily follow that the quality of Jacksons will decline now. We
have to wait and see what they produce.

BTW, many Ibanez endorsees DO have to pay for their guitars, at cost. They're the
low-level "Tom Dick and Harry" acts you mentioned, of whom I know at least one personally, and he pays for his.

[Newc]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Heh heh - in stereo [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

As a point of clarification, I never said the guitars were crap - I wish I still had my EX350 (and a new trem to go on it), but I'm boycotting Ibanez over that deal and I'll do everything I can to steer people to Jackson when the discussion turns to guitars.

Even my 50+ year old Uncle who has played guitar for most of his life was looking at getting an Ibanez because he wants one with a locking trem (mostly for the fine tuners and better tuning stability). He came up for Christmas and played some of my Jacksons, and he likes them - even the imports. He was here when my Tie Dye Fusion (thanks Pete!) arrived, and his eyes lit up like a kid when I took it out of the case. Never mind the fact it's got a pointyhead and sharkfins (he's an "old timer" traditional rock/country fan).
I'm hoping to either help him find a good used USA or Pro Jackson for cheap or buy him one for his birthday - before he breaks down and buys an Ibenhad. I told him I could find used USA Jacksons on Ebay for about what you'd pay for a new import in a store.

Newc

[JACKSONFREAK]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

As far as the endorsers of Jackson and Ibanez go. Steve gets his guitars for free so does Satch. Dave Mustain, Marty Freidman, Randy Rhoads paid for thiers. All of which are of pro calibor and of fame and are associated with being guitar heros and Icons.
Fender does the exact soame thing Jackson has doen for years. The people that play thier guitars and endorse them pay cost for them. They arent given away. As for current customer service from Ibanhad again and again. My depatment manager at work sold an RG3120 to a customer. There are articles on the topic of the rem post hole machine calibration going off slightly. so the holes were in the wrong place and the guitar could not be intonated at all. It sounded good to the 8th fret but then started to sound a little sour and more so as you went up the neck. So my DM calls Ibanez about it and denies the whole thing and wont send out the new posts to correct the problem. Now isnt that an oxy moron? Making a corrected post fitting to correct a problem that doesnt exist? Hoshino wouldnt send the parts by asking for them and even said they werent available. But he does a specail order for them and gets them without a problem or delay. Talk about screwin over the general public and not to mention the largest Ibanez dealer in world. Guitar Center. Yeah there may be other stores that sell more in one locatio but we sell more a sa chain with over 107 stores nationwide than any one store can. Another reason Ibanez is currently doing better with sales is due to the fact that Jackson was until recently owned by a Japes electronics company not a guitar compant. Fender has the same business philosophies and praxctices that Jackson has been known for. With Fender being bow being the owner of Jackson/Charvel its gonna be a marketing frenzy to boost sales. And it will happen. More endorsements, more exposure, and more advertising moneys will be available to make it happen. Why is Fender aquiring all htses other companies you may ask? Well to reach other markets that they havent been able to compete in. But also because they can. They have excellent advertisng and familiarity to guitar players throught the world. They have the widest world distribution of any guitar company. And they know what they are doing. " Ianez has had the same ownership since 1904? While Jackson/Charvel has had 5 ownerssince 1978" I thought it was 4 owners. Wayne Charvel, Grover Jackson, Akai, and now Fender. Akai being the longest to date. did i miss one? Now ask yourself which would you rather play. A guitar that is made in Japan with less expensive parts but are seemingly way over priced? Or a USA made Jackson/Charvel with original Floyd Rose trems and unique body stylings and the prestigue of having some of the best gutars made in the world for less? HMmmmm weres the value now Ibanhad boy?
PS for the record I've owned several Ibanez's includiing USA Customs and have sold them all for Jacksons. Mainly because of the build quality of the Ibanez's i had. Such as Necks twisting, bad neck joints. Pitting and cracking Low Pro edge trems. ( lower grade metal parts). Ive never seen a real Floyd rose or even one of the Schaller trem base plates crack. One of my Ibanez's did. Also a Jackon neck on an Ibanhad body is an obomination and a freak of nature and is just so wrong on so many levels. Although it was an improvement for the PGM30.

Gil

[ January 06, 2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: JACKSONFREAK ]

[Accept2]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

The JCF is slam city.......I like guitars from almost every manufacturer, as long as they arent Korean crap, or an acoustic hippie machine.....I dont now why endorsements are considered evil. If you appear in an ad, and dont get compensated for it, then you a simply a moron. But hey, Manhatten was sold for $24 because some dumb ass believed you couldnt actually own land. So, theres a sucker born every minute........Its kinda sad as well, where are all these companies when the bands are no longer raking in the cash. Please tell us the stories of how Jackson actually gave a crap about Robin Crosby after he and other players built up the company through the use of their images.......

[charvel750]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

First of all, Jackson is superior to Ibanez in build quality, playability, tone, and image. [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img] EVERYONE copied Jackson's super strat concept, including Kramer, BC Rich, Hamer, Ibanez, Dean Z, JB Player, Hondo, and you name it. Ibanez has been "successful" in their sales because they have flooded the market with instruments. Just because everyone buys a product doesn't mean it's a good one. (Remember the Corvair?) Yes, they have earned more $ but have they earned the reputation of being a premier guitar builder? [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img] Is KORN a "successful" band because they sold millions of CD's? Financially, yes, quality wise, NO! [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Many of you know that I'm a high school teacher. Some of my students have learning disabilities or other hinderances in their academic pursuits. Recently one of these students came up to me with his most recent test grade in another class. The grade was curved, the other teacher had to curve the test, the highest score was a 56%, which this particular student actually earned. So, in my mind I'm thinking, "Oh, so you got the best grade out of a class of morons. The king of the morons you are!" But what I really said was, "That's great, you had the best score!" Can anyone really say that his score was good? Sure, it was the best, but it was the best grade out of all the worst students' scores!

As far as Jackson being bought by Fender, you're a fool to believe the sale occured because Jackson was struggling or going under. Their sales have been at an all time high in the recent era. Buyouts are as common as people who breathe air, and to think Jackson sold due to bankruptcy or the fact that they were struggling in the Ibanez dominated market is just plain silly.

So, just because Ibanez sells more guitars doesn't necessarily mean they are better built. Jim Jones made a bunch of people drink poisoned cool-aid, people were dropping dead yet others still took of the drink. Fuhcryinoutloud. [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[JACKSONFREAK]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Apearently your one of those guys that believes everything he reads in a magazine. Its called reedom of the press. They can interperate
things said any way they want to. There are members here who knew Robbin Crosby (R.I.P.) personally and know the truth about the relationship between Robbin and Jackson. I don't know exactly where that article on the trem posts is but why would my DM need to lie about it and why would the customer lie about a guitar that wouldnt intonate because of a miscalibrated machine. If there was no problem why would Ibanez make a replacement post to fix a problem if it didnt exist? Think about it! Fender has said and as well as JAckson that the people who endorse them pay building cost for the piece,(by the way there are former employees of Jackson on this forum so the info is acurate). Maybe you need to reasses the info you have and stop believing everything you read in a magazine. I've probably experienced life alot longer than you have ( i dont know your age so its just an assumption here)
So maybe you should take heed to what your elders say form experience and form the sources themselves. I'll look for that link on the trem post if i can find it ill post the link.
Gil

[khabibissell]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

First off, I'm not trying to start an argument just for the sake of doing it. I'm not gonna give you my resume of life experiences, but at 31, I think I've been around the block a few times!

Why would that article in GFTPM be exaggerated? When I see something that is a direct quote, I would think that it is true. If it wasn't, the person that was quoted (Robbin) could sue the magazine. I also understand that there are people on the forum that have actually met Robbin, but did they discuss his relationship with Jackson in depth? I doubt it, considering that there were other more critical things going on in his life. I know that there are former Jackson employees (Black Mariah) that frequent this site, but he was a QA guy... Not an artist relations person. I'm sure that he knows a bit about what went on there, but I've read many times were he would stop short when discussing new models and artist relations. Maybe Kevin Easton could post and clear this whole situation up. Think about it...
Jackson: "We're gonna build a guitar and put your name on it to market it." Shredder: "Really? So I get my guitars for free, right?" Jackson: "Nope, we are gonna use your name to market and sell it but you're still gonna have to pay for the guitars. Jackson should make a bundle... sound good?" Who in their right mind would agree to that? Like I said before, I would think guys who aren't chart topping artists probably have to pay for their guitars, though at a discount. I'll guarantee you that there are different levels of endorsements. Maybe you are the one that shouldn't believe everthing you read! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

As for the trem post issue, I'm not doubting that it is possible. I would think though since they are made on a production line, there would be some documentation as to the series that is effected by this flaw. I would like to know if my guitar could possible be effected by this. It's fine now but I would hate to run into something down the road.

Again, I think Jackson makes a kick ass product... But I also like other guitars too. It bothers me when people post negative stuff on the JCF without really knowing the deal (I've been a member for about a year and a half, so I've seen it MANY times). Debate is good, but uninformed debate isn't! [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img]

[ January 06, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: khabibissell ]

[khabibissell]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Typical... More misinformation being spread here. First off, do you REALLY think any artist with a signature model actually pays for it? I highly doubt Phil Collen, Dave Mustaine, Scott Ian, or Marty Friedman paid(s) for their guitars. I'm sure Randy Rhoads would be paying for his guitar too right? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] I'd like to see proof where any of the guys you mentioned paid for their guitars. Also, I have an article in Guitar For The Practicing Musician from December of 1984 where Ratt was being introduced. When the question of gear came up, Robbin Crosby states "Grover told me that now you are getting bigger and I want you playing my best guitars. He gave Warren a strat and we built about four different guitars until we got one right for me." I can scan the article if you want but that's the just of it... Doesn't sound like the Ratt boys paid for their guitars either. Having said that, I'm sure bands that aren't tearing up the charts do have to pay for their stuff, but that holds true for EVERY company I can imagine.

As for this trem post issue, your post makes it sound as if EVERY RG3120 has incorrectly installed trem posts. I have one and it's fine. Why don't you post or Email me that memo. I'd like to see it.

I'm not gonna get into a big discussion about what's better... It's a silly argument because it's all about personal preference anyway. But it would be nice if for a change when you guys slammed something, you actually knew what you were talking about... Peace out! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 06, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: khabibissell ]

[JACKSONFREAK]

Re: Paul Gilbert left ibanez for JACKSON !!!

Well at 38 I think ive been around the block at least once more than you. (and for the record I too have been for quite a while a month after inseption of the old board.) Im sure you don't know the extent of the conversations between Robbin Crosby and Jackson's AR dept. However those here who knew Robbin do and I believe them for what it's worth. I don't beleive everything I read But I know fact when I see it especailly when its backed up by several people including some of the employees ( former or current). I don't want to start an argument just for the sake of an argument either, If you knew anything about me you would know i don't post things here I don't beleive to be true. People didnt believe me when I posted that thread on Fender buying Jackson either. And well we all know how that turned out don't we! Don't be so quick to judge those things you don't know. If I'm not sure about something I post it as a question or not at all and wait it out. however the fact that the machine went off calibration is there other wise they wouldnt have made the parts to correct the issue. As for Robbins endorsement, as with Warrens, They paid for thier guitars. Oh and so does Clapton. People play what they like not because of what they get for free. Except for maybe Steve (more money Vai). and Eddie Van Usedtowail. For them it was money. For Robin and Dave its because they are the bvest guitars on the planet period. They play what they want not what they can get from it except for the best damned gutar possable.
I cant find that link for the trem post thing but im looking.
Gil